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Tiers 7-10 Rebalance Plans

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Posted (edited)

Will update OP as different parts get released.

https://aw.my.games/en/news/general/tier-7-10-rebalance-part-1-power-creep

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If you’ve been keeping up with the recent Armored Warfare announcements, you probably know already that for Update 0.33, we are planning a major overhaul of the Tier 7 to Tier 10 balance. However, the update is still quite far away (two months at least) and we are not ready to present you with the full picture of what we are trying to accomplish. So, instead, we will first tell you more about what the philosophy behind the changes is and why we are doing what we are doing.

 

As we mentioned in the above-linked article, one of the core issues we want to address is power creep, so let’s talk about that first.

Power creep is a situation that typically occurs with live service games, where newly added content is more powerful than the existing one, gradually rendering the old content obsolete. The reason why this happens is more or less obvious – live service games, especially free to play games, depend on a steady stream of income to survive, which can only be provided by a steady stream of new content. And, let’s face it – nobody really wants to get new stuff if it’s performing worse than the old one and it doesn’t matter what item it is, a sword, a piece of armor or a tank.

As a developer, you can dread it, run from it, but if you want to keep your audience interested over prolonged periods of time, power creep arrives just the same. The trick is to not make the new items that much more powerful and, at the same time, to periodically update the old items to keep up with the new.

When it comes to Armored Warfare, the power creep effect was during the recent years mild – for the most part. Some mistakes were made, but, generally speaking, we’ve kept power creep at bay for a long time and avoided intentional, blatant pay to win scenarios, even if some Premium vehicles are, politely put, highly competitive.

Nevertheless, our game has reached a state where not only is a rebalance of the older vehicles needed, but, in some aspects, the power creep effect has reached a level where any further (even minor) performance increases would go beyond the limits of what’s possible within the game’s rules.

A typical example of this would be the MBT viewrange values. With high Tiers, we’re at a stage where the MBTs have basically outclassed all other classes in scouting because they have caught up with them when it comes to their spotting abilities. At the same time, scouts cannot be improved any further due to the existing map size and engine restrictions. This is one of the things that we’ll address, but let’s first discuss Tiers in general.

Up until Tier 6, the vehicle power progression (where vehicle power is their capability on the battlefield based on their characteristics as a whole) is more or less regular:

  • Fully upgraded Tier 3 vehicle is roughly as capable as a partially upgraded Tier 4
  • Fully upgraded Tier 4 is roughly as capable as a partially upgraded Tier 5
  • Fully upgraded Tier 5 vehicle is roughly as capable as a partially upgraded Tier 6

At Tier 6, however, power progression starts breaking down, which is why we decided to give special attention to Tiers 7 to 10. As things stand now:

  • Fully upgraded Tier 6 vehicle is roughly as capable as Tier 6 with only a few upgrades
  • Tier 7 and Tier 8 largely overlap in power
  • As a result, there is a massive gap between fully upgraded Tier 8 and fully upgraded Tier 9
  • There is even a bigger gap between a fully upgraded Tier 9 and a fully upgraded Tier 10

As a result, the Tier 9 and Tier 10 vehicles form a sub-category of their own and massively outclass Tier 8 vehicles to the point where going up even in a fully upgraded Tier 8 versus a fully upgraded Tier 9 is extremely difficult, resulting in a practically unwinnable scenario. Tier 9 versus Tier 10 battles are equally as problematic and, as a result, the “transition Tiers” (7 to 9) are not exactly popular.

It’s worth noting, however, that we are not talking only about armor or firepower, but the sum of the vehicles’ properties and also about Tier averages. Within each Tier, there are outliers – vehicles too weak or too powerful to fit this description.

Regardless, especially for the top Tiers, the power spread for Tier 9 and 10 became very wide over the years for several reasons, including power creep. When you inflate each power bracket with new, slightly more powerful vehicles, this is what you get – the top configurations getting further and further from lower Tiers. Lower Tiers were spared this effect simply because we did not add too many new vehicles to them and those that were added were generally not more powerful than their older counterparts because there was no real need to do so – low Tier vehicles are, for most players, simply an obstacle on the road to higher Tiers and therefore they do not need to serve as the primary incentive of a branch (or event).

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One question therefore remains: what will we do about it?

A number of things.

For one, we’ll cut the Tier 7 power bracket (the spread between the weakest – stock – and the strongest, fully upgraded machine) by roughly 25 percent. At the same time, we’ll move it a bit further away from Tier 6 so they don’t overlap as much.

Tier 8is where things start getting interesting. Before, it largely overlapped with Tier 7, which is not idea. We’ll be pushing the Tier performance bracket further from Tier 7 so that the entire progression resembles the one on lower Tiers. While currently a fully upgraded Tier 8 vehicle is roughly 25 percent stronger than a fully upgraded Tier 7 one, this difference will become as wide as the one between fully upgraded Tier 6 and Tier 7 vehicles.

Much like Tier 7, the Tier 9power bracket will get narrower, reducing the difference between fully upgraded Tier 8 and fully upgraded Tier 9 vehicles roughly by one third.

And, finally, the Tier 10 power bracket is going to be cut to one half. In other words, a fully unlocked Tier 9 vehicle will have much better changes when fighting a fully unlocked Tier 10 vehicle.

What is extremely important to realize about what was said above is that all these changes are relative to one another. The power bracket percentages do not translate directly to statistic updates. When we say the power bracket size will increase by a half, it does not mean that the vehicles will have their statistics buffed by 50 percent.

What you should take from this is the following:

  • The power progression between Tiers will be more consistent
  • There will be a bigger difference between Tier 7 and Tier 8 vehicles
  • Tier 8 vehicles will have an easier time fighting Tier 9 vehicles
  • Tier 9 vehicles will have an easier time fighting Tier 10 vehicles
  • Premium vehicles will continue being more or less equivalent to fully unlocked progression vehicles of the same Tier

Of course, there’s much more to this rebalance than smoother progression between Tiers. Battlefield roles will be addressed, mechanics will change, and individual vehicles will be tweaked.

With that being said, we understand your desire for more information. This first developer diary style article is here to lay down the basics, to assure you that we understand the issues that plague this game and are ready to tackle them head on.

 

Part deux: https://aw.my.games/en/news/general/tier-7-10-rebalance-part-2-class-roles

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In the last article, we talked about power creep and what we would like to do with power levels in the game in general. In today’s article, we’ll tell you more about what we would like the vehicle class balance to be like, which, we believe, is very important so that the changes that we’ll be talking about later on make sense.

 

But, before we begin, we’d like to write a few words about these articles in general to make some things clear. These articles do not represent the final product. They represent a vision that we have. There will be changes along the way, that’s something we can guarantee because it’s an evolving process. For example, the last article didn’t mention some topics clearly, such as the Tier 6 and Tier 7 interaction, which we want to make smoother. So, please read the following lines with open minds and remember that it’s all still work in progress.

With that being said, let’s get to it.

Before we started considering the impact of each separate class, we’ve decided on a couple of goals for the whole project:

  • Reducing the results of power creep, as described in the already mentioned article
  • Make all types of shells useful
  • Make the gameplay more dynamic

The last point is closely tied to the success of the 2018-2019 plans to improve low-Tier gameplay in order to make it more dynamic. Since the plan had been positively accepted, we started to introduce some quite dynamic vehicles over the last two years, all of which were more or less received. We’d like to achieve the same fun gameplay on higher Tiers.

Here’s how this plan translates to specific classes:

One of the top problems of today’s balance of top Tiers is the performance of all Main Battle Tanks. Simply put, the MBT class is pretty much the best at everything. It not only has the thickest armor by far, but also a lot of firepower, good mobility and, most importantly, excellent spotting abilities. The last point is especially important because while the Tank Destroyer class is somewhat “safe” with its excellent damage output, the MBTs have been pushing Light Tanks and other scouts “out of business” because the gap between the scouting abilities of dedicated scouts and MBTs became too narrow for the scouts to really have their own niche.

The same goes, to a smaller extent, for the MBT damage output, speed and, in some cases, maneuverability. As you can imagine, this is not really intended and has to be addressed in order to make the role of each class more prominent.

As the most popular class in the game, the Main Battle Tank class will form the baseline of the upcoming balance changes, so let’s discuss that one first.

Long story short, we want the Main Battle Tanks to be the real frontline fighters of Armored Warfare. They should always find themselves first in the fight with their specialty being close-to-mid-range combat. Of all the vehicles in the game, they should have the highest protection levels, as befits this role – and not just their armor, but also other systems such as soft-kill and hard-kill APS, ERA, NERA, the best smoke grenade launchers, the most hitpoints and so on, but without resorting to what’s commonly known amongst the players of Armored Warfare as “pixel hunting.”

“Pixel hunting” is a mechanic where heavily armored targets have only very small (and often illogically placed) weakspots, which means that you have to carefully “scan” the front of the target to aim at those few tiny pixels where your reticle turns green. This is extremely frustrating and offers poor gameplay – in fact, one of the main reasons behind Update 0.19 so long ago was the removal of this effect and we definitely will not return to it. Instead, we’ll be changing the ERA mechanics significantly for them to favor the MBT class more while generally making ERA more useful for everyone.

Firepower-wise, we’ll be aiming at making the MBTs effective at short to medium ranges. The obvious question here is, however, what should we do with the long ranges? The equally obvious answer to this question would be to reduce the MBT accuracy significantly – and that’s exactly what we don’t want to do.

Some other games do this to artificially keep the “heavies” fighting at short ranges, but in reality, the MBTs are remarkably stable and accurate platforms. So, instead, we’ll make (or keep) the MBTs very accurate, even while moving, because that’s what you love about them. Please note that some smaller tweaks may happen in the context of the general rebalance since pretty much everything else will change a bit as well.

 

At this point, however, realism will have to offer some concessions to gameplay because, like we stated before, we definitely do not want to have one class dominate all others. That is why we’re considering making some adjustments that do not exactly match the world we live in, such as:

  • 1) MBT kinetic shells (APFSDS and others) will become noticeably less effective at longer ranges by means of penetration loss. The penetration loss over distance mechanism for kinetic shells is already in place, we’ll just tweak it to become more prominent
  • 2) MBTs will gain the ability to switch ammunition types faster, allowing you to always have the option to decide what ammunition suits your targets the best (this will affect Ready Racks and Clip magazines as well)

We’ll also be rebalancing the gun-launched ATGMs and some kinetic MBT shells will even be buffed to fit their new roles. Very roughly speaking, at close ranges, MBT APFSDS shells will be effective MBT killers while at longer ranges, they will lose their efficiency and we will be encouraging players to carefully consider their selected ammunition type.

That way, the MBTs will remain extremely deadly at close ranges without completely surpassing everyone else and all that without resorting to “pixel hunting”. When two MBTs start fighting each other, the gameplay will shift from looking for weakspots to which tank can penetrate the other at longer distances.

Another thing we truly need to do is tweak mobility, stealth and viewrange values – emphasis on tweaking, not nerfing them to the ground (some slower players seem to like to use these interchangeably). The MBT class will not be incredibly slow, nor will it be totally blind. Each such change will be very carefully considered and fine-tuned.

In summation, what we’ll have is a class that’s very effective up close – in fact, any head to head combat between a MBT and another class of the same Tier will very likely end in MBT’s favor – you shouldn’t be able to trade damage with an MBT in a LT and expect a victory. The MBT class will be very accurate, well protected and adequately mobile at the cost of some spotting abilities and stealth, the way they should have been all along. Last but not least, the changes described above definitely do not mean that all MBTs will play the same. There will still be a lot of diversity within the class itself (especially when it comes to armor values), but, to be clear:

  • “Marksman” MBTs will not outsnipe dedicated snipers (TDs)
  • “Fast” MBTs will not outrun dedicated flankers (LTs)
  • “Armored” MBTs... yeah, those will be a seriously tough nut to crack

And so on. Having the baseline established, let us move to other classes.

Tank Destroyers will be, as they should, the nemesis of Main Battle Tanks. Their intended role won’t change much – they will be the snipers of Armored Warfare:

  • At longer ranges they will be absolutely without equal
  • Amazing accuracy when standing still, surpassing every other class
  • Poor at firing on the move
  • Average to good speed but mediocre agility, these are not supposed to be run-and-gun vehicles
  • Poor protection levels

What this means that, especially at close ranges, they will lose to everyone else. On the other side, at long ranges, they will reign supreme because (and this is new):

  • Unlike the MBTs, their kinetic shells will not lose much (or any) penetration over distance
  • Gun Tank Destroyers will always feature better ammunition than the MBTs of the same Tier (providing both use the same gun caliber)
  • Gun Tank Destroyers will not have very high damage per minute values at longer distances in order not to make them surpass other classes such as Light Tanks

Missile Tank Destroyers will also carry the best missiles available in the game.

Light Tanks will be the flankers and second line support vehicles of Armored Warfare. What this means is:

  • Worse armored but considerably more mobile than MBTs
  • Can spot enemies better than MBTs but worse than AFVs
  • Firepower consists of bursts with extremely high damage per minute values
  • Stealthier than MBTs but less so than TDs or AFVs

So, again, the class will (intention-wise) remain roughly the same as it is now.

And, finally, the Armored Fighting Vehicles will also stay the same with their intention being spotting or fire support (especially via Mechanized Infantry). In short, these will be the fastest, most agile and stealthiest class, but also the most vulnerable one (much like Tank Destroyers, only without the long-range capabilities). We are generally aiming towards improving their usefulness for the entire team by the means of possible new mechanics that we are currently considering.

 

As you can already see, the abovementioned class definitions don’t really fit all vehicles in the game. The Leopard 1 MBT is more like a Light Tank, the Terminators are not unarmored and effectively represent a class of the own. We’re still considering how to address these discrepancies. Internally, we had an idea for multi-classes (MBT/LT for example) and some vehicles may switch to a different class, but this all is something that we’re still thinking about.

Now, with all that being said, there’s one more thing that needs to be made clear. Like we explained in the previous Developer Diary, our goal is to make the gameplay fair and to address power creep. To that end, some weaker vehicles will be buffed, but some overperforming vehicles will be directly nerfed (as opposed to an indirect nerf, where you simply buff everything else) due to the fact that, as we also mentioned, we are already reaching the engine limits in some cases. That is how things are – without this step, we will never be able to achieve the balanced and enjoyable gameplay state that we all desire.

What is important to keep in mind is that these nerfs will be made within the power bracket system that was outlined in the previous article. Simply put, some may look scarier than they actually are, even though they may nowhere near as serious as you might believe and in some cases may be accompanied by improvements on other places.

Do not fear this change, commanders. Embrace it. The game needs it and it will be better for it in the long run, which is what we all want. That does not mean we will not listen to your feedback – the main set of changes will arrive with Update 0.33 while Update 0.34 will contain additional fine-tuning based on it. We are fully aware that only by working together will Armored Warfare be the amazing game we all deserve.

And in case the article was a little too vague for you, don't worry. In the next part of the series, we will be discussing specific mechanics changes along with examples. Stay tuned and, as always:

See you on the battlefield!

 

Part 3: ERA galore. https://aw.my.games/en/news/general/tier-7-10-rebalance-part-3-era

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Welcome to the third part of our developer diary series, in which we explain the changes that will take place in Update 0.33. In the two previous installments, we discussed how we need to address power creep and our vision for the upcoming vehicle roles. Both articles were a little bit vague, but necessary in order to establish the foundations on which the upcoming changes are built. But, today, we’ll start getting more into the specifics.

One of the most discussed topics after the publication of the last part was the impact of all these changes on the PvE modes that are available in the game. Let us address this concern head on: We’ll make sure PvE stays fun due to a combination of adjustments that we are planning. After all, nobody says the AI vehicles have to have the same characteristics as players and other changes to AI opponents are still in the production pipeline.

 

Another concern of yours was the sufficiency of MBT armor in first line combat in general. Rest assured that this too will be addressed during the changes. But one element (that will actually affect all vehicles, not just Tier 7-10) that will definitely play a role in addressing both of these concerns will be the upcoming Explosive Reactive Armor mechanic overhaul.

Here’s what we are planning.

As you know, Explosive Reactive Armor consists of a metallic shell (in most cases anyway) and an explosive filler. When hit, the explosive blow up the frontal plate of an ERA module against the projectile, disrupting HEAT ammo jets and affecting even kinetic ammunition. ERA armor consists of typically brick-shaped elements and gets destroyed upon shell impact.

In Update 0.33, each ERA element will consist of:

  • Armored casing
  • Explosive filler

Armored casing will protect the ERA element from machinegun fire or even autocannons (depending on how advanced the ERA set is). This is due to the fact that with the appearance of machineguns in the game, the tactic of switching to a machinegun and then destroying the entire enemy ERA set in seconds became too prevalent. That way, the ERA would not survive to protect the tank against the threats it was intended against (ATGMs and HEAT rounds). While this is primarily a PvP considerations, having AI opponents rake your armor with autocannon fire yielded the same results.

Please note that while this may sound like a normal armor check, it is not – it doesn’t take the ERA angle into account, only the actual penetration roll.

If the armor of the casing is penetrated, the filler explodes. In game terms, the penetration of this shell will be first reduced by the armored casing thickness and this resulting penetration number will be then reduced by a certain percentage depending on the shell type and ERA effectiveness. This number will also be affected by the shell’s impact angle. The sharper the angle is, the higher the penetration reduction (this will start playing a role at 40 degrees impact angle or sharper).

 

Additionally, ERA elements will have their own hitpoint pool so even if a round penetrates, it may simply damage the ERA (not triggering an explosion) if the shell’s damage is lower than the amount of remaining ERA element hitpoints. The hitpoint count will, however, be lower than on the vehicles equipped with NERA.

So, in summation, what will happen if a projectile hits an ERA element?

  • A penetration check is made with the shell rolling its RNG against the element’s armor casing thickness
  • If the shell penetrates, a damage RNG roll is made and shells with lower damage than the remaining ERA hitpoints simply damage the ERA tile, not doing anything further
  • If the ERA damage fails, the ERA tile explodes

At this point:

  • The penetration established in the first point is reduced by the nominal armor casing thickness
  • This result is then reduced by a percentage determined by each ERA set generation
  • The reduced result is further adjusted by the amount determined by the shell’s impact angle
  • The actual main armor penetration check is made with this new number

The effectiveness of ERA will depend on its generation. There will be four ERA generations present in Armored Warfare (each ERA set will have its generation listed in its description):

First Generation ERA

These are the early ERA sets that appear on Tiers 6 and below.

 

They represent fairly rudimentary designs and offer the following protection:

  • Armor casing immune to machineguns and autocannons of up to 20mm caliber
  • 50% penetration reduction to standard HEAT and HE penetration
  • No protection offered from kinetic shells, HESH shells or tandem ATGM warheads

First generation ERA examples include the Blazer and Kontakt-1 systems.

Second Generation ERA

Second Generation ERA is what you currently see on various service tanks and appears on Tiers 6-8.

 

These sets offer the following protection:

  • Armor casing immune to machineguns and autocannons of up to 20mm caliber
  • 80% penetration reduction to standard HEAT and HE penetration
  • 20% penetration reduction to AP and HESH penetration
  • No protection offered from tandem ATGM warheads

Second generation ERA examples include the Stryker Reactive Armor, ARAT and Kontakt-5 systems.

Third Generation ERA

Third Generation ERA is the current cutting edge technology and appears on Tiers 8-10.

 

These sets offer the following protection:

  • Armor casing immune to machineguns and autocannons of up to 20mm caliber, can take multiple larger autocannon hits to take down
  • 80% penetration reduction to standard HEAT and HE penetration
  • 50% penetration reduction to tandem HEAT penetration
  • 50% penetration reduction to AP and HESH penetration

Third generation ERA examples include the ARAT-2 and Relikt systems and pretty much everything else on the abovementioned Tiers, with some exceptions. Oplot’s Duplet armor will belong to this generation while retaining its “twin layer” special properties.

Fourth Generation ERA

This generation represents either current cutting edge or fictional armor Tier, introduced for the sake of balance. Only two sets of armor will belong to this Generation, Armata’s Malakhit and XM1A3’s special ARAT set.

 

As you can imagine, the protection offered by this armor will be substantial:

  • Armor casing immune to machineguns and autocannons of up to 20mm caliber, can take multiple larger autocannon hits to take down
  • 90% penetration reduction to standard HEAT and HE penetration
  • 90% penetration reduction to tandem HEAT penetration
  • 90% penetration reduction to AP and HESH penetration
  • 70% penetration reduction to the best kinetic shells in the game (excluding kinetic ATGMs)

With that being said, there are a few important things to keep in mind:

  • Like in real life, lighter armor sets meant for IFVs and Light Tanks will not protect as much as the heavy sets carried by MBTs
  • There will also be interim generations (Gen 2+, Gen 3+) with their characteristics somewhere between generations

At the end of the day, the numbers above only serve as examples of what we are aiming towards and we’ll be reviewing each ERA kit individually (for example, the partial Relikt armor found on older BMPT models will perform worse than the one on the BMPT-72) to make sure that they do not end up overperforming. Likewise, we will pay special attention to the MBTs that do not have any frontal ERA, such as the Abrams tanks, to make sure that they do not suffer in this new system.

 

Now, as for how this system will change the actual gameplay, this was disclosed in the previous article. When fighting each other, two MBTs are expected to fire at areas not covered by Explosive Reactive Armor (or other extra armor types, for that matter) at close ranges. At mid-ranges, they will be expected to fire at weaker areas (such as Russian MBT lower frontal plates) and at long ranges... well, you won’t be expected to fight other MBTs in an MBT at long ranges. At lower and mid Tiers (where ATGMs start to become a thing), ERA kits will boost the ability of the MBT class to lead the charge – yes, even against the dreaded Swingfire ATGMs in PvE.

As for the PvE mode specifically, as we announced before, we already introduced some aiming mechanism changes and are planning to take further steps to improve AI behavior, some of which are described in this article but didn’t make it into the game yet. The AI opponents won’t be automatically aiming at your weakspots, which means that your armor will be able to take more punishment in general, especially against HEAT rounds and ATGMs, which, we are sure you will agree, is a good thing to have.

There will also be some changes addressing the PvE situation indirectly, like adding more vehicles to the AI pool (which, in turn, will reduce the appearance rate of vehicles many players consider toxic). But that is a story for another time.

For now, rest assured that we are reading your feedback carefully and taking it into account. Next time, we’ll be diving into even more specifics of the rebalance.

 

Part 4: https://aw.my.games/en/news/general/tier-7-10-rebalance-part-4-individual-vehicles

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This article will be split into two parts – one about MBTs and one about the rest of the vehicles. With that being said, let’s get to it.

 

Main Battle Tanks

 

As you know from the earlier article about classes, Main Battle Tanks will be close-to-mid range fighters, relying on their armor, enhanced by the new ERA mechanics. The first step to their balance is establishing a MBT characteristics baseline for each Tier with each individual vehicle being rebalanced within certain limits above and below the baseline.

As you also already know, we’ll be rebalancing pretty much all the values of each vehicle on Tiers 7 to 10. For MBTs, this is especially relevant when it comes to the interaction of armor and penetration values. We’ll be taking those two values and separating them into several levels, depending on the abovementioned baseline values. Mind you, this is not a black or white situation – pretty much all the values will be within a spectrum. This does sound a bit complex, so let’s use a very simplified example.

Let’s say two MBTs are facing each other at 50-100 meters. First thing, neither commander should be firing at enemy MBT’s ERA. This will typically “eat” the first shot by reducing the penetration significantly, putting the firing tank at a disadvantage. Next, let’s assume both tanks have baseline (average) armor and penetration. What that typically means is that:

  • The strongest armor areas, which are the front of the turret and the upper frontal plate, are difficult-to-impossible to penetrate
  • Turret ring is possible to penetrate, but only with great difficulty
  • Lower frontal plate is possible or very likely to penetrate, depending on the angle

What happens if we upgrade the tank that’s fired upon with above average armor?

  • The turret ring becomes impossible to penetrate
  • The chance to penetrate the lower frontal plate will drop by 20-30 percent (excluding the angle influence)

Obviously, due to the loss of kinetic shell penetration mentioned in the Classes article, the chances will only reduce with distance so at 300-400+ meters, MBTs will have very difficult time penetrating each other. But what will happen if a tank with above-average penetration (let’s say a Leopard) runs into a tank with below-average armor (let’s say a Type 99)? In such a case:

  • Frontal turret will still be very difficult to penetrate
  • Turret ring will be possible to penetrate, but not very likely
  • Upper frontal plate will also be possible to penetrate, but the chance will 25-30 percent, making it a poor target as well
  • Lower frontal plate will offer guaranteed penetrations

The trick for high-penetration MBTs is therefore to aim at the same areas (ideally lower frontal plate), but at longer distances. If we reverse the situation and give the firing tank below-average penetration and the target above-average armor, we’ll still get a manageable situation, where:

  • Pretty much all the areas except for the lower frontal plate become invulnerable
  • Lower frontal plate will be possible to penetrate, but definitely not guaranteed – we’re looking at 50/50 chances at best without taking the hull angle into account

The message we are trying to convey with this system is:

  • ERA has meaning now, especially on high Tiers – don’t shoot it unless you have to
  • Don’t snipe with an MBT, the results of doing so will be poor even with above-average penetration tanks such as the Leopard
  • A Tier difference somewhat reduces your chances to penetrate, but we took great care to address the differences between Tiers (starting with the one between Tier 6 and Tier 7) so that the sense of progression is kept while the fights are still kept fair

As for the individual MBTs, their role on the battlefield is best explained by the following table:

  • Green color means above-average values for their Tier
  • Yellow color means average values for their Tier
  • Red color means below average values for their Tier

The deeper the color, the more prominent the characteristic.

table

Keep in mind, however, that these values apply within the MBT characteristics limits. An accurate MBT with high penetration values will never be as good a Sniper as a dedicated Tank Destroyer while a highly mobile MBT will never be as mobile or agile as a Light Tank. Some tanks that were good at pretty much everything will get rebalanced to fit the niche we’ve designed them for, but all of them will serve you well if you take the time to learn more about their new characteristics.

 

Other Classes

 

The case with other classes is considerably more complex simply because there are three of them (we won’t be discussing the SPG class individually because it doesn’t change much) and each of these classes contains a number of fairly individual vehicles, creating fantastic gameplay diversity.

Before we get into the details, there are two things that should be mentioned, which apply to all non-MBT classes:

  • The ERA overhaul applies to all classes, not just the MBTs, which means that some Light Tanks will become more durable in the process
  • The mobility overhaul (which is by its nature very difficult to describe) will allow you to drive your wheeled vehicles with higher precision

So, all in all, we’re starting with two clear (if indirect) buffs. In their typical characteristics (spotting abilities for AFVs, burst damage for LTs, accuracy and penetration for TDs), these classes will be made more different from MBTs, but beyond that, we’ve decided to adopt the Archetype approach to various groups. The roles described in the Classes article will still apply – LTs will not have thick armor and TDs won’t be close-range fighters – but beyond that, there will be multiple groups and each vehicle in the group will be balanced individually. You’ll also see some references to the abovementioned MBT balance so the table above may come in handy.

With that being said, let’s finally dive into it.

 

Tier 7

 

tier7

 

Click the image to open a larger version

 

AFV – The Warrior is an IFV archetype of solid combined autocannon and ATGM DPM with Type 89 and BWP-2000 leaning towards being more like Light Tanks in their playstyle by using mostly their guns. The BWP-2000 especially will rely on its powerful 50mm gun at closer ranges while being able to harass even MBTs. On the other side of the spectrum we have vehicles such as the BMDs, which work better with missiles to the point of the BMD-2M nearing the Tank Destroyer role. The Rosomak is a special case since it doesn’t have guided missiles at all and lives or dies by its PELE ammunition.

LT – This is an easy one since we do have only one such vehicle on Tier 7. The Stingray is effectively a heavy, less mobile AFV, armed with a MBT-caliber cannon instead of an autocannon. It relies on its main gun and extremely high DPM to do damage (roughly 40 percent higher than an average MBT of the same Tier).

TD (Gun) – Things are getting more interesting. The gun version of ZUBR PSP is more or less an average wheeled Tank Destroyer. In Update 0.33, Tank Destroyers with guns will have the ability to fire very powerful kinetic shells at long distances with high accuracy. Three Tank Destroyers will be leaning more towards being TD/LT hybrids with Type 16 effectively being a LT with wheels, the Centauro benefiting from a clip autoloader at the cost of ZUBR’s powerful shells and PTL-02 resembling the ZUBR with lower alpha but higher DPM. On the opposite side of the spectrum, PTZ-89 will have higher alpha than ZUBR at the cost of DPM.

TD (ATGM) – These vehicles are mostly intended for true long-range combat and will receive a major ATGM firepower buff across the board. There is a downside to it though. At the same, this vehicle category will become much easier to spot when firing. The diminutive Wiesel will be the quintessential ATGM Tank Destroyer with hard-hitting missiles but almost zero protection. NM142 will resemble the Wiesel gameplay-wise, only sacrificing a portion of its camouflage value for the ability to fire top-down missiles. The ZUBR PSP ATGM variant too falls in this category, but this vehicle is due for a major upgrade in the form of upgraded TOW ATGMs, the same ones used by NM142. On the opposite side of the spectrum, the VBL will effectively be an AFV/TD hybrid with more emphasis on ATGMs than on scouting. Right now, in Update 0.32, it’s a stealthy scout that also offers cutting edge direct fire ATGMs. What we want to do is allow it to keep its powerful ATGMs (which we will be buffing, as stated above), but, at the same time, we have to rebalance the vehicle towards the TD role because buffing its firepower while letting it maintain its spotting abilities wouldn’t be good for the game. As a result, it won’t be a very effective spotter but it will be quite stealthy (at least when not firing) even under the new rules. Please note that the same will apply to the other four-wheeled ATGM-armed scouts.

 

Tier 8

 

tier 8

 

Click the image to open a larger version

 

AFV – On this Tier, the Bradley is an IFV archetype of solid combined autocannon and ATGM DPM. There are two AFVs that are leaning more towards the DPM powerhouse role thanks to the fact they do not carry any ATGMs but are instead armed with very powerful autocannons. These are the Griffin 50mm and Marder 2. Of the two, Marder 2 is even more DPM-oriented as well as remarkably well armored, while the Griffin is more about accuracy (it retains its special penetration mechanic) and scouting. On the opposite side of the spectrum, we have the upgraded Rosomak, which is effectively a wheeled Bradley with more powerful ATGMs. Even further towards the TD class, we can find the Stalker with its powerful ATGMs and scouting abilities, but that vehicle is fairly unique not to fall into either category, as is the Pindad, which is a complete outlier due to its weapon system.

LT – The LTs really start to separate from the rest on this Tier. Like we mentioned, they are heavy AFVs with MBT-caliber guns. They are stealthier and better spotters than MBTs, but worse than AFVs in general. The M8 Buford is an archetypical LT with an accurate gun and high DPM values. The ASCOD LT will have a more armor and a magazine clip at the cost of mobility and stealth. The Harimau will sacrifice protection and penetration for higher mobility and a well-sized magazine clip with high rate of fire. On the other side, we have the Dragun, which is basically a Tank Destroyer classified as a Light Tank and the Griffin 120mm, which has heavier armor so it has one leg in the MBT category, although shifts more towards the TD role with unlocked overprogression modules.

TD (Gun) – Here, we have two archetypical gun TDs, the WWO Wilk (which can also fire gun-launched guided missiles) and the ST1, which occupies the same slot but is a progression vehicle (unlike the Wilk). The rest of them lean more towards the Light Tank class, some less (M1128 Stryker), some more (Sprut-SD, which is very similar to the Dragun but fine-tuned towards stealth) and the AMX 10 RCR is a true wheeled Light Tank.

TD (ATGM) – Once again, things are getting more interesting here. We have the light four-wheeled Mephisto and the even lighter VBR (which is, much like the VBL, a TD/scout hybrid that sacrifices powerful ATGMs and hitpoints for extra stealth and spotting), but the most specialized tank killer here is the Bradley AAWS-H with its extremely potent kinetic missiles. This vehicle is almost useless at close ranges, so if you own it or ever get your hands on it (it’s a Premium vehicle), you better proceed with real caution. The M1134 Stryker variant with its top-attack missiles occupies roughly the same position as the NM142 one Tier below.

TD (Terminator) – This vehicle type appears on Tier 8 and is effectively a class of its own. It’s a very unusual hybrid of MBTs (heavy armor), AFVs (autocannons) and TDs (guided missiles) that’s intended for mid-range combat, somewhere between true TDs and MBTs. It features extremely high autocannon DPM but its ATGMs are only average. There are three vehicles of this group available on Tier 8 – Ramka-99, BMPT Mod.2017 and BMPT Mod.2000. Of the three, Ramka and Mod.2017 are roughly the same (yes, we’re taking a look at Mod.2017’s performance) while Mod.2000 leans towards long-range ATGM combat at the expense of autocannon DPM.

 

Tier 9

 

tier 9

 

Click the image to open a larger version

 

AFV – Once again, this Tier has an IFV archetype in the form of Hunter AFV, which, despite the presence of various interesting mechanics such as the NERA, works much like the Bradley. The AS21 Redback is like that as well, only sacrificing its combined autocannon and ATGM firepower in favor of more armor and improved top-down guided missiles. On the other side, we have the Vigilante AFV, which is effectively a gun-based DPM monster much like the Marder one Tier below, but lacks some of its traits. It can be an excellent scout as well thanks to its active radar ability. On the opposite side of the spectrum, we have two small four-wheeled vehicles that are not only excellent scouts, but also close to the ATGM Tank Destroyer category – K-153C and CRAB. While the first one is fairly recent, the CRAB is one of the oldest vehicles in Armored Warfare and is going to receive a well-deserved overhaul in the form of bringing it closer to the rest of the VBL/VBR family as a scout/TD hybrid with the emphasis on scouting.

LT – On this Tier, we have three Light Tanks in total. The archetypical LT here is the Thunderbolt (much like the Buford one Tier below), having an accurate gun and high DPM values. The VT-5 has higher DPM value and better active protection compared to the Thunderbolt, bringing it a bit more towards the MBT class. On the opposite side, the WPB Anders Light Tank has actually less DPM than the Thunderbolt, but features an unmanned turret, making it better protected.

TD (Gun) – Here, we have only one archetypical gun TDs, the Centauro 120. Another TD that’s present on this Tier is the DRACO, which is a Centauro variant with a rapid fire gun. Thanks to its scouting abilities, this is effectively an AFV/TD hybrid and forms a category of its own, although gameplay-wise, it’ll be something like the Marder 2 or Vigilante (armed with an automatic cannon with very high DPM), only with a higher caliber gun and fighting at longer ranges.

TD (ATGM) – On Tier 9, the Hellfire is an archetypical ATGM Tank Destroyer, but that doesn’t really say much because the only other such vehicle on this Tier is the Stryker ADATS, which is a very distinctive hybrid vehicle that features both guided missiles and unguided rockets. Especially the Hellfire embodies what this group should be all about – the potential to deal tremendous damage in a short period of time and at longer distances with the downside being overcoming enemy defenses (APS, ERA) and surviving the salvo (stronger de-masking effect of ATGM fire). However, on this Tier, the truly dominating Tank Destroyers are the Terminators.

TD (Terminator) – Just like on Tier 8, the Tier 9 Terminators form a class of its own, and a very diverse one at that to the point of each of them being quite individual. BMPT-72 resembles the BMPTs one Tier below while the Leclerc T40, while still somewhat armored, is nowhere near as durable. On the upside, it’s considerably more mobile than the BMPT and features top-down ATGMs, making him quite a deadly flanker in addition to its TD role. Abrams AGDS focuses more on long-range combat thanks to its massive loadout of 12 ADATS missiles. It is armed with autocannons as well, but since its missiles are usable exclusively at longer ranges, its combined firepower at mid-to-short ranges will be inferior to the BMPT-72. And, finally, the QN-506 is something like a BMPT/Stryker ADATS hybrid. It’s somewhat armored and features many weapon systems (perhaps too many), but it’s not a “true” BMPT and will not survive close combat. Treat it as a high DPM ATGM Tank Destroyer with lower range instead.

 

Tier 10

 

And so we finally get to the ultimate Armored Warfare Tier. Here, we can find some very unique vehicles that do not fit various archetypes but, nonetheless, we can roughly position them on our diagram.

tier 10

 

Click the image to open a larger version

 

AFV – There are only two AFVs on Tier 10 (excluding the Kornet-EM, which will be treated more like a TD), the widely obtainable SPHINX and the Battalion-exclusive Shadow. The Sphinx is more durable than your classic four-wheeled light scouting AFV – and it has to be in order to be able to take a few hits. It has a high-DPM autocannon and guided missiles. In this sense, it now resembles the Terminator a bit but it still has its AFV camouflage and viewrange instead of armor. The Shadow is a major outlier by being a dedicated scout to the exclusion of pretty much everything else, including firepower. This vehicle does visually resemble the VBL series, but its purpose is mostly organized gameplay where its scouting and disrupting abilities can shine.

LT – There are also two LTs on Tier 10. The PL-01 relies mostly on stealth at the cost of DPM (it also retains its ability to deploy a sniper), while the K21 XC-8 suffers from poor protection, but more than makes up for it with excellent DPM.

TD (Gun) – There’s only one real Tier 10 Gun Tank Destroyer in the game and it’s the Wilk XC-8 with its famous 120mm PELE rounds that provide it with excellent armor-piercing capabilities. All in all, the boundaries start to blend here a lot. The Wilk retains its high wheeled mobility to the point of practically being a Light Tank (resembling the K21 XC8), but is still tuned for long-range combat. The M48 GAU-8 is another unique vehicle that does not really fit the standard schematic. It’s a Tank Destroyer, but thanks to its massive rotary cannon and extreme burst output, it comes closer to the Light Tank role.

TD (ATGM) – We have three such vehicles on Tier 10. The AFT-10 and M8 MGM-166 both fill the role of the ultimate long-range tank killer but each of them does it differently. The AFT-10 relies on volleys of ATGMs, some of which will inevitably become intercepted or diverted, while the M8 MGM-166 fires its powerful kinetic missiles with impunity at the cost of its rate of fire. Both are, however, nearly useless in close combat. And then we have the Kornet-EM, which now acts more as a Tank Destroyer than a scout because we nerfed its viewrange. Still, it’s a light and stealthy vehicle and you will need to use both to your advantage.

TD (Terminator) – As the final Tier 10 vehicle, we have the famous T-15 Armata. The T-15 is effectively the same as lower Tier Terminators and we’ll be taking a long, hard look at its extreme damage output to bring it back into the fold. On the other hand, the T-15 comes with upgraded ERA and APS, so it will still be quite a powerhouse, just not best at everything anymore.

 

Edited by Haswell
Added part 4 (see edit history)

Spoiler

 

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Haswell said:

and avoided intentional, blatant pay to win scenarios....

"Herr Strela, do you have something to say in your defense?"
"I plead guilty, your honour. I admit it, I am indeed ... I believe the phrase is: 'pay to win as fuck' "
"In that case, I have no alternative: You are sentenced to be kicked, unchanged into Tier 9, then dressed in lipstick and a ballerina costume, and thrown over the wall of a Turkish prison.

Case dismissed"

Edited by Lenticulas (see edit history)

"Yog-Sothoth knows the gate. Yog-Sothoth is the gate. Yog-Sothoth is the key and guardian of the gate. Past, present, future, all are one in Yog-Sothoth."

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Posted (edited)

What they should be doing (pardon the rudimentary MS Paint skillz)

 

AW tiers corrected.jpg

Their plan leaves 7-10 PvE in shambles because the size of Tier 8 is still too large and the gap between Tier 6 and Tier 8 is also still too large.  It kind of looks like they're not considering SpecOps in their plans, and SpecOps breaks at Tier 8, not at Tier 6.  Right now it's pretty rare to see a Tier 6 in a Tier 8 match, but it does happen and those poor Tier 6s are useless when it does.

My idea is that Tiers 7-9 should be the same "size", but smaller than Tiers 1-6, and that the gap between odd numbered Tiers (or even numbered) should be the same progression as it currently is in Tiers 1-6.  That will mean that the top end advantage of Tier 10 over Tier 9 is smaller than they have planned (which IMHO is good for all game modes), and perhaps more importantly the gaps between top-end Tier 6s and top-end Tier 8s will be smaller (good for SpecOps), as will the gap between top-end Tier 7 and top-end Tier 10 (good for PvE and presumably GLOPS and PvP).

To do this, top-end Tier 7s get nerfed.  Bottom-end Tier 8s get buffed.  Top-end Tier 9's get nerfed.  Tier 10 gets nerfed hard - its entire new range is below the old range.

Edited by knutliott (see edit history)

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Interesting to see/hear from the perspective of PvE.

1 hour ago, knutliott said:

To do this, top-end Tier 7s get nerfed.  Bottom-end Tier 8s get buffed.  Top-end Tier 9's get nerfed.  Tier 10 gets nerfed hard - its entire new range is below the old range.

Unfortunately, this would cause havoc/uproar among PvP players. Should many preferred/favourited vehicles (especially at tier 10) face a massive nerf bat, I'm confident the majority of PvP players would stop playing altogether.

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This should be interesting.

I was hoping that they would keep that overlapping like they have on the lower tiers all the way through up to tier 10 but lets see where this goes.

Hopefully some of the junk like anything related to the Abrams at lower tiers will get fixed.


 

"If you were not birthed with claws or fangs, store bought will do just fine."

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9 minutes ago, Katsumoto said:

Hopefully some of the junk like anything related to the Abrams at lower tiers will get fixed.

They've confirmed an overhaul of the entire Abrams line, including the AIM.

The Abrams will also be remodeled, as their current models are far from accurate (which is actually a factor in their poor armor profiles for some reason).

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2 hours ago, di_duncan said:

Interesting to see/hear from the perspective of PvE.

Unfortunately, this would cause havoc/uproar among PvP players. Should many preferred/favourited vehicles (especially at tier 10) face a massive nerf bat, I'm confident the majority of PvP players would stop playing altogether.

Yeah, that would be a risk.  It does seem weird to me that PvP players are so attached to actual stats vs relative stats, but it's true.  (I've played a lot of PvP in other games, particularly MW4 and MWO.)  PvP players would rather have everything else get buffed up to the OP levels of their favorite vehicles, even though that's many times more work and much riskier in terms of the re-balancing being successful.

I suspect that TTK is one of the impetuses behind the re-balancing.  It's a borderline too low right now.  A very slight across-the-board nerf to TTK would go a long way toward fixing balance across classes.

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18 minutes ago, knutliott said:

I suspect that TTK is one of the impetuses behind the re-balancing.

Yes, you're right on that one.

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I re-did my version so that it better shows what's happening.  You could also leave Tier 10 as a 3-wide like the other tiers so that it only has to be "nerfed" 3 times instead of 4, but I honestly feel like that would leave Tier 10 vehicles too powerful compared to the overall meta.  If one of your goals is to allow more than just Tier 10 vehicles to be competitive at top-end play, then the gap between the best Tier 10s and the best Tier 9s needs to be smaller than the gaps at lower tiers.

Again, apologies for the rudimentary MS Paint skillz.

AW tiers corrected 2.jpg

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Posted (edited)
58 minutes ago, knutliott said:

I suspect that TTK is one of the impetuses behind the re-balancing.

What is TTK?  That is something I haven't heard the acronym for yet.

 

Never mind, figured it out.  It stands for time-to-kill.  Unless it means something else.

Edited by Katsumoto (see edit history)
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"If you were not birthed with claws or fangs, store bought will do just fine."

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Posted (edited)
58 minutes ago, knutliott said:

I suspect that TTK is one of the impetuses behind the re-balancing.  It's a borderline too low right now.  A very slight across-the-board nerf to TTK would go a long way toward fixing balance across classes.

I would gladly accept a comprehensive TTK increase. Just [please] don't fuck with the unique/distinctive characteristic(s) of certain vehicles. 

Please, for the love of god, don't fuck with my polan-01... Give it some love instead ;)

34 minutes ago, knutliott said:

Again, apologies for the rudimentary MS Paint skillz.

Looks pretty good to me ;)

Edited by di_duncan
Rewording (see edit history)
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20 minutes ago, di_duncan said:

Please, for the love of god, don't fuck with my polan-01... Give it some love instead ;)

I hate that tank in PvE.  God I hate that tank.  You can't see it until it's too late, and it auto-pens basically anything it shoots at.  Every 2 seconds.  And it has troll armor.

PL-01 is a higher priority target in PvE than a T-15.  T-15 sucks because if it surprises you you're dead, but if it doesn't surprise you it's pretty easy to mitigate.  PL-01 is kind of the opposite - it kills you slowly enough that you have time to pop smoke and try to hide, but then it's still out there and you can't mitigate it.  It's going to pen you as soon as it can see you, so you just have to hide until a teammate takes it out.

Anders and K21 can be similarly annoying, but they don't have troll armor or insane camo so aren't as bad.

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Hmm I feel like everyone is looking over one glaring little issue, the fact that there already is a massive gap between t6 and t7... And to not make this a baseless claim let's give an example, for example mbt pen, and since I am lazy take the leos. The t6 leo2av has 500mm pen, the t7 leo2 has 700mm pen (both fully upgraded), where else do you see such a jump. Between t7-8 it's 100mm (again for the leos) and after that 50mm pen buffs. Since the armor at each tier is based upon the highest pen values at a tier (or at least it seems that way) you can see that t6 armor is absolutely garbage when fighting t7s. So unless you get the side you can just not pen your t7 counterpart as a t6, while you often can in other classes. Or in some cases just lolpen turret cheeks as a t7 fighting a t6. (This happened to a m1 abrams while I was in a lec proto). I feel like this issue is about as big as the high tier inbalance... But I do agree this is only really an issue in PvP based modes. 

That said, I feel like t10s need something to offer which is better then the same tank at t9. I feel like the difference should be made smaller, but not how it's in your graph knutliott. Because then where is the reward after grinding your new shiny t10? I feel like a t9 should be able to deal with a t10 if the player in the t9 is more competent, but I feel like it should not be a level playing field.

But hey this is just my late at night rambling, so it might not make any sense at all 

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40 minutes ago, knutliott said:

I hate that tank in PvE.  God I hate that tank.  You can't see it until it's too late, and it auto-pens basically anything it shoots at.  Every 2 seconds.  And it has troll armor.

Believe me, I hate the PL in PvE just as much as the next guy ;)

But I don't think nerfing the vehicle is the proper solution for this issue, as the frustration is isolated to AI-controlled PL-01s in PvE.

Perhaps a nerf to AI PLs or even a wide-ranging AI accuracy nerf (for all weapons, not just missiles) could suffice?

33 minutes ago, itzjustrick said:

That said, I feel like t10s need something to offer which is better then the same tank at t9. I feel like the difference should be made smaller, but not how it's in your graph knutliott. Because then where is the reward after grinding your new shiny t10? I feel like a t9 should be able to deal with a t10 if the player in the t9 is more competent, but I feel like it should not be a level playing field.

Agreed.

The problematic Abrams line has some of the worst vehicles ATM (apart from the XM1A3). Consequently, the "gap" between the M1A2C and the XM1A3 is massive. This is an obvious example of the "power creep" that this community (and the article) have discussed.

However, some newer vehicles, such as the Leclerc or the T40, are more comparable to tier 10s than their tier 9s counterparts. They are among the first power creep "poster child vehicles" to come to my mind. 

Meanwhile, the PL (at least in PvP/GlOps) is largely overshadowed by it's cousin, the Anders. As I've explained here, the Anders possesses some significant advantages over the PL despite being a tier lower. And although the two do not share a vehicle line (even though they definitely should), there should definitely be some parity/consistency between tiers.

 

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1 hour ago, itzjustrick said:

That said, I feel like t10s need something to offer which is better then the same tank at t9. I feel like the difference should be made smaller, but not how it's in your graph knutliott. Because then where is the reward after grinding your new shiny t10? I feel like a t9 should be able to deal with a t10 if the player in the t9 is more competent, but I feel like it should not be a level playing field.

That's covered in my graph.  The solid red portion of Tier 10 goes farther to the right than the solid red portion of Tier 9.

The best Tier 10s would still be better than the best Tier 9s, and so on all the way down the Tiers.  All I've done is make it so that the best Tier 10s wouldn't be dramatically better than the best Tier 9s, because one of the desires of the rebalance is to make it so that people play more tiers in each game mode.  If Tier 10s are dramatically better than Tier 9s even after the rebalance, then nothing will change.  People will continue to only play Tier 10s unless they have some external reason (like grinding to advance) to play a lower tier.

35 minutes ago, di_duncan said:

Believe me, I hate the PL in PvE just as much as the next guy ;)

But I don't think nerfing the vehicle is the proper solution for this issue, as the frustration is isolated to AI-controlled PL-01s in PvE.

Perhaps a nerf to AI PLs or even a wide-ranging AI accuracy nerf (for all weapons, not just missiles) could suffice?

Oh I don't think it needs to be nerfed.  Playing one in PvE shows that it isn't the vehicle that's a problem, it's the bot programming.  Bot LT vehicles seem to get specific bonuses (or perhaps just more finely tuned AI) for targeting and potentially pen, which the PL-01, Anders, K21 XC8, et al use with annoying reliability.  And while I don't believe that they actually get a bonus to VR, in practice they have a VR advantage because there are more bots coming at you from multiple directions than there are players.  So in the hands of a bot, the PL-01 is pretty damn potent.  But it's only in the hands of a bot, so if a correction is needed (and as much as I hate the damn thing, I don't think one is needed) the way to do it would be to change the AI coding.

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uhh are we seeing increased reload for 130-140 mm guns then because that's the cause of penetration and alpha creep at tier 10, if i roughly remember there is like a 1k dps increase from tier 9-10 on average for MBTS.

 

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, knutliott said:

That's covered in my graph.  The solid red portion of Tier 10 goes farther to the right than the solid red portion of Tier 9.

Oh yes, those arrows distracted me. Something like that might be fine, it's hard to tell like this. Still it feels like such a difference is sufficient.

What I'm thinking of when thinking of a good step up is the Leclerc to the Leclerc t4. This is a relatively small difference (since the Leclerc is borderline op) but still very noticeable. 

 

Edited by itzjustrick (see edit history)

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5 hours ago, LeoAegisMaximus said:

uhh are we seeing increased reload for 130-140 mm guns then because that's the cause of penetration and alpha creep at tier 10, if i roughly remember there is like a 1k dps increase from tier 9-10 on average for MBTS.

 

I could see in one part of this balancing pass to be a change in the damage per shot being made to help improve the TTK.  That would be one of the things that would make sense given how quickly tanks are dying in a match.


 

"If you were not birthed with claws or fangs, store bought will do just fine."

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14 hours ago, knutliott said:

I suspect that TTK is one of the impetuses behind the re-balancing.  It's a borderline too low right now.  A very slight across-the-board nerf to TTK would go a long way toward fixing balance across classes.

Watching streamers with PvP happens to be depressing now, commands often have 10 vs 10, with +2 tier difference in roaster, even during apparent prime time. People in charge don't care of TTK itself, but they want to reduce a difference betweem tiers to make +2 PvP roaster less confirming obvious flaws in AW vehicle balancing.

 

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21 hours ago, itzjustrick said:

there already is a massive gap between t6 and t7...

 

I didn't notice this much for the Abrams :-6   I was grinding away at the T6 M1, thinking that the T7 M1A1 would give me more joy with a 120 mm gun.

Instead, with stock M1A1, I lost my HEAT, had less mobility, and the 120 mm was still a popgun against the bots that just got better at penning my cardboard armor. Sigh.

I understand why a little overlap between tiers is a good thing, but the cyclic backtracking upon tiering up is probably another reason why someone might be tempted to abandon the progression game.

[Obviously not a concern for those who buy into premium vehicles that are already fully upgraded, and understandably this may be the chief reason to retain the revenue from premium vehicles after the rebalance.)

 

On 7/10/2020 at 10:01 AM, Haswell said:

low Tier vehicles are, for most players, simply an obstacle on the road to higher Tiers 

 

I don't know... for me, low Tier vehicles are a key to sanity. Yeah, you're not printing credits, but the fun factor provides a good relief from grinding. I like going back to the low Tier stuff, just because there is a certain fun factor there that isn't quite there in the higher tiers. Reload times are shorter, the upgrades are cheap, the vehicle classes are pretty distinct, and there is less spread between vehicles of the same class. 

Kind of like what the utopian upper tiers should be after the rebalance (haha).

I wonder if the graph would more properly reflect the game if the power spread in the lower tiers was narrower than in the upper tiers. Of course, it could be that the power axis is logarithmic, in which case T10 is truly hosed. :-)

 

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35 minutes ago, Quantum_Ranger said:

didn't notice this much for the Abrams :-6   I was grinding away at the T6 M1, thinking that the T7 M1A1 would give me more joy with a 120 mm gun.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I assume you are a PvE player (since you're talking about heat). In pve the bracket ends at t6 this means that t6 has to fight way weaker bots than t7s which means that relatively weak t6s is no problem. In pvp t6 however fights t7, so there this difference is not really noticable.

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Have a feeling this is going to sux balls for PVE players, maybe its time for different tank stats for PVE and PVP/GLOPS? yeah i know wishful thinking, lets just hope this doesn't drive PVE players away, 



 

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35 minutes ago, Travlla said:

Have a feeling this is going to sux balls for PVE players, maybe its time for different tank stats for PVE and PVP/GLOPS? yeah i know wishful thinking, lets just hope this doesn't drive PVE players away, 

If the overall concern is TTK and it is appropriately and efficiently addressed, I don't think PvE should become any more or less fustrating to play. 

Yes, enemies would take longer to kill; but they would also deal less damage to players.

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Looks like all then need to do would to move T8 and T9 so they overlap like the lower tiers. No need to nerf T10, may even need to buff T10 to get the right overlap as seen in T1 thru T7. They just need to adjust their match making for both PVE and PVP. Also remove the buffs for the Lieutenant and officer bots. They should, to help reduce chaffing in PVE, remove shared vision for the bots. They also need to reduce the load times for most of the 120mm pig loaded tanks. 

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