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Tiers 7-10 Rebalance Plans

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6 hours ago, dfnce said:

Also i received it as very bad news that PvE won't get any new SO anymore, at least in this present roadmap. The quality (playability, fun factor) of last BP was terrible, I do understand it is difficult COVID situation around the world now and many companies seek for savings and are avoiding investments, but somehow AW (mail.ru) can afford high risk balance 3.0 initiative and they think that PvE community should be happy without any serious content update. 

If the rebalance is as gargantuan an undertaking as I think it is, it might mean all hands on deck for the devs.  I suspect changes in the balance of power between players and bots will require adjustments to the existing PvE maps, so designing more maps (which would also soon require adjustment) might pull away more FTE's/clock cycles away from the tuning of existing stuff.  For that reason, I'm OK for waiting on new SO for now...  until everyone has a chance to iron out the kinks in the post-balance world. After that, though, fresh content would be welcome by a lot of folks.

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18 hours ago, itzjustrick said:

We don't know anything for sure, but yes this whole rebalance thing feels mainly intended for the PvP (random battles) players. Mainly because this is the only mode for which I actually feel mbts are strong. (Disprove me please). Without having seen actual stats it's hard to tell, so we'll see... But I hope they will also take the global operations and pve players into account. But we can hopefully assume there will be a public test, so I think it's a bit too early to form our opinions yet.

Depends on devs of mail ru to use PTS to actually collect feedback and shape things this time, and how many phases they plan to roll. My previous observation was that the PTS purpose was to locate of most prominent errors and devs did their own "telemetry". Without "feedback matters" promise the PTS only gives a taste of upcoming changes and incites a lot of meta game discussions in chats, but nothing more. 

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On 7/28/2020 at 9:43 PM, di_duncan said:

So because the majority of players enjoy playing MBTs, their performance should be emphasized/prioritized? That's not a particularly valid/convincing argument.

According to such logic, all other classes should remain inferior to MBTs largely in part due to their overwhelming popularity and accessibility. May as well remove/exclude all the other classes entirely then, since all of their roles can be effectively performed by MBTs (at least in their current form).

I knew several players who enjoyed playing lighter vehicles who quit AW simply because of the dominance of MBTs. I don't think it's particularly enjoyable to be forced to one class due to that specific class of vehicle(s) being far more effective on the battlefield.   

I have few thoughts here

1) it should be conscious business decision what is market segment for this game. Make happy everyone, or just few. Or make majority unhappy and happy selected group (like MBT players). It is totally up to the producer as business owner. What i see that the recurring remodelling of base principles of the game indicate that they don't have well-defined foundation or long-term strategy, and they still attempt to define that multi-class common ground, which is harder to define than monolithic ground which serves interests to one group only. 

MBT-love doesn't contradict with advertisement hype around AW in Russia in 2016 was built around another hype - mighty armata T-14 which soon conquer all the world. And that was golden era of AW in RU segment, which all happened before Balance 2.0.  After b2.0 the course was taken to "WoT-alike" gameplay, and then each next update was adding more and more imbalanced mechanics, truly f2p mmo. So when i read they want to nerf all MBT, ask - are they play their game? What is wrong with them, they should study gameplay videos on youtube of AW back in 2016 before 0.12 (when MBT were super blind).

2) considering how many people play AFV/TD/LT in PvP simply points that these classes are far from being handicapped. They have damage, speed, stealth when passive and vision by default.  What mail ru forgets to say is that Ophelia commander was the one who made MBT superior spotter (more specialized build Dougas second). There are still Miramon and Ioannis but they trade so much to get their situational spotting.

3) current spotting mechanics is in shaked state now. It doesn't work in consistent intuitive way. Even if you change a core of spotting stats, it is still working on code which needs a lot of improvement

4) When if consider when and why MBT dominate over other classes

- what is the role counter-MBT class 

 --- Is it doing damage from stealth?

 --- Is it scouting?

 --- Is attempt to balance trade "armor vs stealth" makes sense? 

 --- is it correct that vehicle can self-spot, deal damage and remain hidden in same time (vs not so far-seeing opponents) ?

 --- what is value or condition where  MBT can spot such vehicle (and make everyone happy)? 

- do all MBT perform same way?

- do all tiers expose MBT prevalence over AFV-TD?

- do maps provide enough room for AFV-TD?

- what is impact of commanders which make MBT stronger spotter than they  used to be ?

5) Mail ru did their experiment with Arty (removal and now attempt to bring it back). Official people here could answer if that really mattered. Arty is already in game in form of auto-bot auto-aim mortar - just with shorter range. In my opinion, introducing arty would counter AFV/TD and help blind MBT. None of lobbyists obviously advocate full spotting ammo for Arty, it could harm AFV/TD sitting on far positions.

6) With spotting range nerf it with be difficult for MBT to spot such infantry. 

Edited by dfnce (see edit history)

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Big copypasta inbound: https://aw.my.games/en/news/general/tier-7-10-rebalance-part-4-individual-vehicles

Quote

This article will be split into two parts – one about MBTs and one about the rest of the vehicles. With that being said, let’s get to it.

 

Main Battle Tanks

 

As you know from the earlier article about classes, Main Battle Tanks will be close-to-mid range fighters, relying on their armor, enhanced by the new ERA mechanics. The first step to their balance is establishing a MBT characteristics baseline for each Tier with each individual vehicle being rebalanced within certain limits above and below the baseline.

As you also already know, we’ll be rebalancing pretty much all the values of each vehicle on Tiers 7 to 10. For MBTs, this is especially relevant when it comes to the interaction of armor and penetration values. We’ll be taking those two values and separating them into several levels, depending on the abovementioned baseline values. Mind you, this is not a black or white situation – pretty much all the values will be within a spectrum. This does sound a bit complex, so let’s use a very simplified example.

Let’s say two MBTs are facing each other at 50-100 meters. First thing, neither commander should be firing at enemy MBT’s ERA. This will typically “eat” the first shot by reducing the penetration significantly, putting the firing tank at a disadvantage. Next, let’s assume both tanks have baseline (average) armor and penetration. What that typically means is that:

  • The strongest armor areas, which are the front of the turret and the upper frontal plate, are difficult-to-impossible to penetrate
  • Turret ring is possible to penetrate, but only with great difficulty
  • Lower frontal plate is possible or very likely to penetrate, depending on the angle

What happens if we upgrade the tank that’s fired upon with above average armor?

  • The turret ring becomes impossible to penetrate
  • The chance to penetrate the lower frontal plate will drop by 20-30 percent (excluding the angle influence)

Obviously, due to the loss of kinetic shell penetration mentioned in the Classes article, the chances will only reduce with distance so at 300-400+ meters, MBTs will have very difficult time penetrating each other. But what will happen if a tank with above-average penetration (let’s say a Leopard) runs into a tank with below-average armor (let’s say a Type 99)? In such a case:

  • Frontal turret will still be very difficult to penetrate
  • Turret ring will be possible to penetrate, but not very likely
  • Upper frontal plate will also be possible to penetrate, but the chance will 25-30 percent, making it a poor target as well
  • Lower frontal plate will offer guaranteed penetrations

The trick for high-penetration MBTs is therefore to aim at the same areas (ideally lower frontal plate), but at longer distances. If we reverse the situation and give the firing tank below-average penetration and the target above-average armor, we’ll still get a manageable situation, where:

  • Pretty much all the areas except for the lower frontal plate become invulnerable
  • Lower frontal plate will be possible to penetrate, but definitely not guaranteed – we’re looking at 50/50 chances at best without taking the hull angle into account

The message we are trying to convey with this system is:

  • ERA has meaning now, especially on high Tiers – don’t shoot it unless you have to
  • Don’t snipe with an MBT, the results of doing so will be poor even with above-average penetration tanks such as the Leopard
  • A Tier difference somewhat reduces your chances to penetrate, but we took great care to address the differences between Tiers (starting with the one between Tier 6 and Tier 7) so that the sense of progression is kept while the fights are still kept fair

As for the individual MBTs, their role on the battlefield is best explained by the following table:

  • Green color means above-average values for their Tier
  • Yellow color means average values for their Tier
  • Red color means below average values for their Tier

The deeper the color, the more prominent the characteristic.

table

Keep in mind, however, that these values apply within the MBT characteristics limits. An accurate MBT with high penetration values will never be as good a Sniper as a dedicated Tank Destroyer while a highly mobile MBT will never be as mobile or agile as a Light Tank. Some tanks that were good at pretty much everything will get rebalanced to fit the niche we’ve designed them for, but all of them will serve you well if you take the time to learn more about their new characteristics.

 

Other Classes

 

The case with other classes is considerably more complex simply because there are three of them (we won’t be discussing the SPG class individually because it doesn’t change much) and each of these classes contains a number of fairly individual vehicles, creating fantastic gameplay diversity.

Before we get into the details, there are two things that should be mentioned, which apply to all non-MBT classes:

  • The ERA overhaul applies to all classes, not just the MBTs, which means that some Light Tanks will become more durable in the process
  • The mobility overhaul (which is by its nature very difficult to describe) will allow you to drive your wheeled vehicles with higher precision

So, all in all, we’re starting with two clear (if indirect) buffs. In their typical characteristics (spotting abilities for AFVs, burst damage for LTs, accuracy and penetration for TDs), these classes will be made more different from MBTs, but beyond that, we’ve decided to adopt the Archetype approach to various groups. The roles described in the Classes article will still apply – LTs will not have thick armor and TDs won’t be close-range fighters – but beyond that, there will be multiple groups and each vehicle in the group will be balanced individually. You’ll also see some references to the abovementioned MBT balance so the table above may come in handy.

With that being said, let’s finally dive into it.

 

Tier 7

 

tier7

 

Click the image to open a larger version

 

AFV – The Warrior is an IFV archetype of solid combined autocannon and ATGM DPM with Type 89 and BWP-2000 leaning towards being more like Light Tanks in their playstyle by using mostly their guns. The BWP-2000 especially will rely on its powerful 50mm gun at closer ranges while being able to harass even MBTs. On the other side of the spectrum we have vehicles such as the BMDs, which work better with missiles to the point of the BMD-2M nearing the Tank Destroyer role. The Rosomak is a special case since it doesn’t have guided missiles at all and lives or dies by its PELE ammunition.

LT – This is an easy one since we do have only one such vehicle on Tier 7. The Stingray is effectively a heavy, less mobile AFV, armed with a MBT-caliber cannon instead of an autocannon. It relies on its main gun and extremely high DPM to do damage (roughly 40 percent higher than an average MBT of the same Tier).

TD (Gun) – Things are getting more interesting. The gun version of ZUBR PSP is more or less an average wheeled Tank Destroyer. In Update 0.33, Tank Destroyers with guns will have the ability to fire very powerful kinetic shells at long distances with high accuracy. Three Tank Destroyers will be leaning more towards being TD/LT hybrids with Type 16 effectively being a LT with wheels, the Centauro benefiting from a clip autoloader at the cost of ZUBR’s powerful shells and PTL-02 resembling the ZUBR with lower alpha but higher DPM. On the opposite side of the spectrum, PTZ-89 will have higher alpha than ZUBR at the cost of DPM.

TD (ATGM) – These vehicles are mostly intended for true long-range combat and will receive a major ATGM firepower buff across the board. There is a downside to it though. At the same, this vehicle category will become much easier to spot when firing. The diminutive Wiesel will be the quintessential ATGM Tank Destroyer with hard-hitting missiles but almost zero protection. NM142 will resemble the Wiesel gameplay-wise, only sacrificing a portion of its camouflage value for the ability to fire top-down missiles. The ZUBR PSP ATGM variant too falls in this category, but this vehicle is due for a major upgrade in the form of upgraded TOW ATGMs, the same ones used by NM142. On the opposite side of the spectrum, the VBL will effectively be an AFV/TD hybrid with more emphasis on ATGMs than on scouting. Right now, in Update 0.32, it’s a stealthy scout that also offers cutting edge direct fire ATGMs. What we want to do is allow it to keep its powerful ATGMs (which we will be buffing, as stated above), but, at the same time, we have to rebalance the vehicle towards the TD role because buffing its firepower while letting it maintain its spotting abilities wouldn’t be good for the game. As a result, it won’t be a very effective spotter but it will be quite stealthy (at least when not firing) even under the new rules. Please note that the same will apply to the other four-wheeled ATGM-armed scouts.

 

Tier 8

 

tier 8

 

Click the image to open a larger version

 

AFV – On this Tier, the Bradley is an IFV archetype of solid combined autocannon and ATGM DPM. There are two AFVs that are leaning more towards the DPM powerhouse role thanks to the fact they do not carry any ATGMs but are instead armed with very powerful autocannons. These are the Griffin 50mm and Marder 2. Of the two, Marder 2 is even more DPM-oriented as well as remarkably well armored, while the Griffin is more about accuracy (it retains its special penetration mechanic) and scouting. On the opposite side of the spectrum, we have the upgraded Rosomak, which is effectively a wheeled Bradley with more powerful ATGMs. Even further towards the TD class, we can find the Stalker with its powerful ATGMs and scouting abilities, but that vehicle is fairly unique not to fall into either category, as is the Pindad, which is a complete outlier due to its weapon system.

LT – The LTs really start to separate from the rest on this Tier. Like we mentioned, they are heavy AFVs with MBT-caliber guns. They are stealthier and better spotters than MBTs, but worse than AFVs in general. The M8 Buford is an archetypical LT with an accurate gun and high DPM values. The ASCOD LT will have a more armor and a magazine clip at the cost of mobility and stealth. The Harimau will sacrifice protection and penetration for higher mobility and a well-sized magazine clip with high rate of fire. On the other side, we have the Dragun, which is basically a Tank Destroyer classified as a Light Tank and the Griffin 120mm, which has heavier armor so it has one leg in the MBT category, although shifts more towards the TD role with unlocked overprogression modules.

TD (Gun) – Here, we have two archetypical gun TDs, the WWO Wilk (which can also fire gun-launched guided missiles) and the ST1, which occupies the same slot but is a progression vehicle (unlike the Wilk). The rest of them lean more towards the Light Tank class, some less (M1128 Stryker), some more (Sprut-SD, which is very similar to the Dragun but fine-tuned towards stealth) and the AMX 10 RCR is a true wheeled Light Tank.

TD (ATGM) – Once again, things are getting more interesting here. We have the light four-wheeled Mephisto and the even lighter VBR (which is, much like the VBL, a TD/scout hybrid that sacrifices powerful ATGMs and hitpoints for extra stealth and spotting), but the most specialized tank killer here is the Bradley AAWS-H with its extremely potent kinetic missiles. This vehicle is almost useless at close ranges, so if you own it or ever get your hands on it (it’s a Premium vehicle), you better proceed with real caution. The M1134 Stryker variant with its top-attack missiles occupies roughly the same position as the NM142 one Tier below.

TD (Terminator) – This vehicle type appears on Tier 8 and is effectively a class of its own. It’s a very unusual hybrid of MBTs (heavy armor), AFVs (autocannons) and TDs (guided missiles) that’s intended for mid-range combat, somewhere between true TDs and MBTs. It features extremely high autocannon DPM but its ATGMs are only average. There are three vehicles of this group available on Tier 8 – Ramka-99, BMPT Mod.2017 and BMPT Mod.2000. Of the three, Ramka and Mod.2017 are roughly the same (yes, we’re taking a look at Mod.2017’s performance) while Mod.2000 leans towards long-range ATGM combat at the expense of autocannon DPM.

 

Tier 9

 

tier 9

 

Click the image to open a larger version

 

AFV – Once again, this Tier has an IFV archetype in the form of Hunter AFV, which, despite the presence of various interesting mechanics such as the NERA, works much like the Bradley. The AS21 Redback is like that as well, only sacrificing its combined autocannon and ATGM firepower in favor of more armor and improved top-down guided missiles. On the other side, we have the Vigilante AFV, which is effectively a gun-based DPM monster much like the Marder one Tier below, but lacks some of its traits. It can be an excellent scout as well thanks to its active radar ability. On the opposite side of the spectrum, we have two small four-wheeled vehicles that are not only excellent scouts, but also close to the ATGM Tank Destroyer category – K-153C and CRAB. While the first one is fairly recent, the CRAB is one of the oldest vehicles in Armored Warfare and is going to receive a well-deserved overhaul in the form of bringing it closer to the rest of the VBL/VBR family as a scout/TD hybrid with the emphasis on scouting.

LT – On this Tier, we have three Light Tanks in total. The archetypical LT here is the Thunderbolt (much like the Buford one Tier below), having an accurate gun and high DPM values. The VT-5 has higher DPM value and better active protection compared to the Thunderbolt, bringing it a bit more towards the MBT class. On the opposite side, the WPB Anders Light Tank has actually less DPM than the Thunderbolt, but features an unmanned turret, making it better protected.

TD (Gun) – Here, we have only one archetypical gun TDs, the Centauro 120. Another TD that’s present on this Tier is the DRACO, which is a Centauro variant with a rapid fire gun. Thanks to its scouting abilities, this is effectively an AFV/TD hybrid and forms a category of its own, although gameplay-wise, it’ll be something like the Marder 2 or Vigilante (armed with an automatic cannon with very high DPM), only with a higher caliber gun and fighting at longer ranges.

TD (ATGM) – On Tier 9, the Hellfire is an archetypical ATGM Tank Destroyer, but that doesn’t really say much because the only other such vehicle on this Tier is the Stryker ADATS, which is a very distinctive hybrid vehicle that features both guided missiles and unguided rockets. Especially the Hellfire embodies what this group should be all about – the potential to deal tremendous damage in a short period of time and at longer distances with the downside being overcoming enemy defenses (APS, ERA) and surviving the salvo (stronger de-masking effect of ATGM fire). However, on this Tier, the truly dominating Tank Destroyers are the Terminators.

TD (Terminator) – Just like on Tier 8, the Tier 9 Terminators form a class of its own, and a very diverse one at that to the point of each of them being quite individual. BMPT-72 resembles the BMPTs one Tier below while the Leclerc T40, while still somewhat armored, is nowhere near as durable. On the upside, it’s considerably more mobile than the BMPT and features top-down ATGMs, making him quite a deadly flanker in addition to its TD role. Abrams AGDS focuses more on long-range combat thanks to its massive loadout of 12 ADATS missiles. It is armed with autocannons as well, but since its missiles are usable exclusively at longer ranges, its combined firepower at mid-to-short ranges will be inferior to the BMPT-72. And, finally, the QN-506 is something like a BMPT/Stryker ADATS hybrid. It’s somewhat armored and features many weapon systems (perhaps too many), but it’s not a “true” BMPT and will not survive close combat. Treat it as a high DPM ATGM Tank Destroyer with lower range instead.

 

Tier 10

 

And so we finally get to the ultimate Armored Warfare Tier. Here, we can find some very unique vehicles that do not fit various archetypes but, nonetheless, we can roughly position them on our diagram.

tier 10

 

Click the image to open a larger version

 

AFV – There are only two AFVs on Tier 10 (excluding the Kornet-EM, which will be treated more like a TD), the widely obtainable SPHINX and the Battalion-exclusive Shadow. The Sphinx is more durable than your classic four-wheeled light scouting AFV – and it has to be in order to be able to take a few hits. It has a high-DPM autocannon and guided missiles. In this sense, it now resembles the Terminator a bit but it still has its AFV camouflage and viewrange instead of armor. The Shadow is a major outlier by being a dedicated scout to the exclusion of pretty much everything else, including firepower. This vehicle does visually resemble the VBL series, but its purpose is mostly organized gameplay where its scouting and disrupting abilities can shine.

LT – There are also two LTs on Tier 10. The PL-01 relies mostly on stealth at the cost of DPM (it also retains its ability to deploy a sniper), while the K21 XC-8 suffers from poor protection, but more than makes up for it with excellent DPM.

TD (Gun) – There’s only one real Tier 10 Gun Tank Destroyer in the game and it’s the Wilk XC-8 with its famous 120mm PELE rounds that provide it with excellent armor-piercing capabilities. All in all, the boundaries start to blend here a lot. The Wilk retains its high wheeled mobility to the point of practically being a Light Tank (resembling the K21 XC8), but is still tuned for long-range combat. The M48 GAU-8 is another unique vehicle that does not really fit the standard schematic. It’s a Tank Destroyer, but thanks to its massive rotary cannon and extreme burst output, it comes closer to the Light Tank role.

TD (ATGM) – We have three such vehicles on Tier 10. The AFT-10 and M8 MGM-166 both fill the role of the ultimate long-range tank killer but each of them does it differently. The AFT-10 relies on volleys of ATGMs, some of which will inevitably become intercepted or diverted, while the M8 MGM-166 fires its powerful kinetic missiles with impunity at the cost of its rate of fire. Both are, however, nearly useless in close combat. And then we have the Kornet-EM, which now acts more as a Tank Destroyer than a scout because we nerfed its viewrange. Still, it’s a light and stealthy vehicle and you will need to use both to your advantage.

TD (Terminator) – As the final Tier 10 vehicle, we have the famous T-15 Armata. The T-15 is effectively the same as lower Tier Terminators and we’ll be taking a long, hard look at its extreme damage output to bring it back into the fold. On the other hand, the T-15 comes with upgraded ERA and APS, so it will still be quite a powerhouse, just not best at everything anymore.

 


Spoiler

 

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Well, with how that reads: Someone saw a shovel, they want to dig their grave, cause that will make pve pain (maybe just because im pessimistic as hell, maybe because ive been around long enough to know that these kinds of rebalances not really work out too well. and with how low the playercount already seems to be...)

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in QA is 60-80% players playing pve so maybe they want to force them to stop play this game and make it with pvp 50/50 :-D

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Doesn't sound too bad to me. I'll start crying, if necessary, once I can test it on the testserver (Let's pray for some more testers to get at least a GLOPS or PVP battle :dedseal:).

Quote

The message we are trying to convey with this system is:

  • ERA has meaning now, especially on high Tiers – don’t shoot it unless you have to
  • Don’t snipe with an MBT, the results of doing so will be poor even with above-average penetration tanks such as the Leopard
  • A Tier difference somewhat reduces your chances to penetrate, but we took great care to address the differences between Tiers (starting with the one between Tier 6 and Tier 7) so that the sense of progression is kept while the fights are still kept fair

Sounds good to me, let's see how it turns out. I hope ERA really gets more effective in general. Wonder what happens to stuff like CATTB, Obj 490 or Obj 640 which do exceed ridiculously at some traits.

I'd not interpret the whole illustrations literally. For me it shows that the devs are aware that there are quite a lot of vehicles not really fitting a specific class and thus need a special balancing. Before we can test the vehicles individually there is not really much reason to already speculate what will happen to this and that vehicle in particular, especially given, that basically everything changes in this tiers (we don't have anything to compare the changes against).


Spoiler

fdassdaas.jpg.c709df3e98adc5265f232fe9458a3043.jpg

 

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SS himself said that 60-80% of the players play PVE, why the fuck are they forcing such massive changes to all the tanks to suit PVP???

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6 minutes ago, LeoAegisMaximus said:

wait how are they going to balance this for pve? this is just the pvp side oh god.

They are going to balanace the PvE gamemode (they say). These stats will also be for PvE...

  • Upvote 1

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10 minutes ago, LeoAegisMaximus said:

wait how are they going to balance this for pve? this is just the pvp side oh god.

most likely, they try to force us from pve. Might be just Tinfoilhattalk, but pve takes more actual work by them in the long run

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It isn't like they've introduced any new maps in a year though (for both random battles and glops). So I wonder why they suddenly decided to focus on PvP...

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43 minutes ago, Captiannemo said:

There was never not a focus on PVP.  PVP has always been the goal with AW.

So true

They saw the giant, platinum-lined, tank-shaped jacuzzi full of money, coke and hookers that SerB of WoT has, and there was a ka-ching noise, and (₽!) o (₽!) Rouble signs appeared in their eyes ... "it's pvp, it's PVP I tell you!"

 

;-)

Edited by Lenticulas (see edit history)

"Yog-Sothoth knows the gate. Yog-Sothoth is the gate. Yog-Sothoth is the key and guardian of the gate. Past, present, future, all are one in Yog-Sothoth."

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4 hours ago, Haswell said:

As for the individual MBTs, their role on the battlefield is best explained by the following table:

  • Green color means above-average values for their Tier
  • Yellow color means average values for their Tier
  • Red color means below average values for their Tier

 

 

So after all the promises and prayers, the Abrams line is going to be .... average. :classic_sad:

This is still a useful chart for helping Abrams owners pick out what (other!) line they should grind next.

DVC, QR

 

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5 hours ago, Beeda2004 said:

in QA is 60-80% players playing pve so maybe they want to force them to stop play this game and make it with pvp 50/50 :-D

 

4 hours ago, darkrai said:

most likely, they try to force us from pve. Might be just Tinfoilhattalk, but pve takes more actual work by them in the long run

 

2 hours ago, Captiannemo said:

There was never not a focus on PVP.  PVP has always been the goal with AW.

All of the above.  PvP is the Holy Grail of Free-to-Play games because the players themselves are the "content" for other players.  Relatively speaking, it takes very little effort to support a F2P PvP game compared to a well-supported PvE game.

The question that never gets answered, though, is what proportion of their revenue comes from PvE players compared to PvP players?  They keep trying to push everyone to PvP, sometimes to the point of requiring PvE players to play PvP to complete objectives in contests, but is that actually wise based on their revenue?  I would have to guess that it is (wise) - AW is a business after all, so even though 60-80% of games are PvE it may very well be that more-or-less casual PvE players simply don't pump as much money into the game as hard-core PvP players.  Ergo, they need to spend their resources supporting PvP.

1 hour ago, Quantum_Ranger said:

So after all the promises and prayers, the Abrams line is going to be .... average. :classic_sad:

Yeah I took one glance at that chart and immediately though that the Russian tanks look OP and that the Abrams line looks meh.  I couldn't really bear to look at the other columns in any detail.

I'm of course looking at it from a PvE perspective, but the reduced accuracy of the Russian line in no way counter-balances all of the other goodness in that line.  The "new" meta for MBTs is that they're going to be short to medium range brawlers anyway, so who cares about accuracy?

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For me, the main problem with this article is the picture about the mbt stats and then specific the chinese tanks. The other stats seem how they are right now and how I expect them to be. However for the chinese, the type 140 apparently has less dmg and pen than a type 99, while this right now clearly is the other way around. Without getting into more specifics, this feels very weird. So I am wondering, is this just the picture being incorrect or something else?

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Regarding the PvP focus... initially (we're talking 2011-2012), the considerations were basically twofold. Apart from the obvious stuff mentioned by you guys above (players themselves being the content):

1) PvP is interesting for streaming. Nobody wants to watch the same PvE missions over and over but skilled PvP, now that's more like it. Essentially, with some very specific exceptions that we did not classify for at the time (MMORPG - hardcore raiding), you don't get a big audience by streaming PvE. They hoped to grow the content creator community this way.

2) In the beginning, they specifically hoped to expand the playerbase by inviting harcore PvP clans from WoT over (aka "unicums"). The rationale was that these clans had established fanbases and very little churn. If they crossed over and the PvP environment was interesting enough, they'd form a very stable playerbase core.

The fact that I don't generally like PvP elitists is well-known and I was advising strongly against 2) for a few reasons. For one, hardcore PvP players rarely (almost never) take into account the needs of wider populace. They want as much skill-based gameplay as possible (logically, they want to show their skilly), which tends to lead to very niche gameplay that's not interesting for anyone else. WoT specifically became successful because it offered very casual experience in the beginning.

But, more importantly, hardcore playerbase isn't instant noodles. It doesn't come pre-packaged by taking it from somewhere else. It has to grow from the roots. Easy come, easy go, they say - and this is one of the biggest cases where I was proven right. The logical happened - these clans (like RSOP and a few others) did come over, they kinda enjoyed the game, but soon started having demands that were incompatible with the vision of the game as a casual experience. Their demands were not met and so they left. The rest packed up when PvP first on the NA server and then on the EU server collapsed. Of course the whole shitshow with Obsidian didn't help.

Regarding the streamers, this too practically collapsed in the west with the demise of PvP queues. The most harmful thing here was the death of the NA PvP queues because most - if not all - great streamers we used to have (who weren't paid) were Americans. This is important because... let's face it. Everyone wants to listen to people with pleasant voices and good English. Streamers are mostly entertainers, they don't even have to be good players (see Jingles for example). When the Americans and English went, the community contributor scene mostly collapsed. We still have dedicated streamers, even good ones like Spitfire, but their views are generally very low.

The same happened with the Russians to a degree, only not as bad because their PvP never truly collapsed. But all "influential" (and I am using that loosely, we're talking about guys with single and low thousands of views per video) people on their side are old players (Zuberg, Snake, Chavez mostly). There's nobody new and our playerbase is too small to grow a truly big influencer. Influencers are results, not reasons games get successful.

So why am I telling you all this?

Because making games has a LOT of inertia. The Mail.ru development team was tuned to this kind of thinking, that's the people there were around when the direction was kept and the people who are around now are the veterans of that era. AW is a five year old game now (a decade if we're talking the initial development phase, which was very long). Changing directions is very, very very hard. Plus you have guys who are good at what they do, with years of experience, at this. At PvP tuning. This all came together in the 0.33 rebalance.

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I don't get it.  They are going to nerf AP rounds in MBTs.  To offset this nerf they are going to buff the effectiveness of ERA.  Ok, what about the MBTs that don't have any or much ERA?  Do they just get nerfed?

Or, what about the MBTs that are designed to snipe such as the Sabra 2?

Am I missing something?

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3 hours ago, Lt_Don_Shaljian said:

Am I missing something?

I'd not take this articles as a black/white kind of thing. Currently, we know way too little to draw conclusions regarding single vehicles. I'm certain the devs are aware of vehicles which do kinda belong into the "grey zone" and need special care balancing wise. 

Even if some vehicles turn out to be over- or underperforming (this will happen for sure) the devs will do the needed adjustments. This rebalance looks like a big thing. Therefore, the devs will certainly monitor all the affected vehicles etc. very closely and improve it over time. Just don't expect it to be perfect from the start because this is near impossible to achieve.

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5 hours ago, Lt_Don_Shaljian said:

I don't get it.  They are going to nerf AP rounds in MBTs.  To offset this nerf they are going to buff the effectiveness of ERA.  Ok, what about the MBTs that don't have any or much ERA?  Do they just get nerfed?

Or, what about the MBTs that are designed to snipe such as the Sabra 2?

Am I missing something?

Ideally they'd be doing a full Balance 3.0 so that they could move vehicles to different tiers, but given the fallout from Balance 2.0 I suspect that was never really in the cards.

Moving vehicles to different tiers as needed would have allowed for non-ERA vehicles to move down to remain competitive.  ERA in 0.33 sounds like a straight-up necessity to be balanced against same-tier vehicles.  I.e. if one tank (among peers) has it then they all have to have it, or that one tank has to be something that would be weaker without the ERA and it's only because of the ERA that it manages to stay competitive amongst its peers.  I don't have a great feel for how ERA is currently distributed within tiers, but I strongly suspect that it's pretty random.  In 0.33, tanks with ERA are going to be pretty much superior to tanks without it provided they're otherwise similar.

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Thank you for your thoughtful comments.  I appreciate them.

I guess a rational response response, to all of this, might be to continue enjoying the game, but don't purchase anything until the dust settles.

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I really hope that certain vehicles get reclassed.  The T-15 is a prime example.  it's an IFV not a TD.

In my opinion if you class it as an AFV that would make "bringing it into the fold" a bit easier and would help the quality of life a bit.


 

"If you were not birthed with claws or fangs, store bought will do just fine."

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On 8/13/2020 at 9:07 PM, Silentstalker said:

1) PvP is interesting for streaming. Nobody wants to watch the same PvE missions over and over but skilled PvP, now that's more like it. Essentially, with some very specific exceptions that we did not classify for at the time (MMORPG - hardcore raiding), you don't get a big audience by streaming PvE. They hoped to grow the content creator community this way.

Strangely enough I started watch WoT few months ago, and I found there is no lack of quiet brilliant commenters there. WT is less, but compared to AW it is huge content to watch.

In terms of twists and action AW PvE falls quite low. It is entertaining, but watching it is pointless unless new SO comes out for educational purpose. It is not walkthrough of AAA game.

 

On 8/13/2020 at 9:07 PM, Silentstalker said:

Regarding the streamers, this too practically collapsed in the west with the demise of PvP queues. The most harmful thing here was the death of the NA PvP queues because most - if not all - great streamers we used to have (who weren't paid) were Americans. This is important because... let's face it. Everyone wants to listen to people with pleasant voices and good English. Streamers are mostly entertainers, they don't even have to be good players (see Jingles for example). When the Americans and English went, the community contributor scene mostly collapsed. We still have dedicated streamers, even good ones like Spitfire, but their views are generally very low.

The same happened with the Russians to a degree, only not as bad because their PvP never truly collapsed. But all "influential" (and I am using that loosely, we're talking about guys with single and low thousands of views per video) people on their side are old players (Zuberg, Snake, Chavez mostly). There's nobody new and our playerbase is too small to grow a truly big influencer. Influencers are results, not reasons games get successful.

These three are certainly have their influence, but they still pale compared to Polezny Bes which used to describe quite well whole picture of AW issues. For now Zuberg is one who doesn't repeat news from official site and capable to bring own complex ideas.

Miracle Expert plays best among them imo, but even he melts struggling all these PvP mechanics and bugs. Also he barely influencer personality.

Any of English-speaking streamers i met were either lack of skill, charisma, or simply (or rude) whiny snow flake queens. They abandoned AW once it didn't pay off to do it. 

Edited by dfnce (see edit history)
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