October 7 rebalancing emotionally charged feedback thread

[Haswell 295]

Centralized thread to contain all the rage and despair, after seeing the quality results of the October 7 update.

Notes for reference:

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Tier 1-6 Overhaul

In this Update, we are beginning the work on the previously announced Tier 1 to Tier 6 overhaul of existing vehicles. The goals of this overhaul are to address the power gaps between Tiers and to bring the over-performing as well as underperforming vehicles to the fold. The progression between Tiers should feel smoother and the vehicles better balanced, allowing you to effectively resist an enemy two Tiers higher. In general, we are aiming for the classes to be as such:

• MBTs: Poor baseline accuracy, only small accuracy penalty for moving, poor camouflage and poor viewrange
• LTs: Average baseline accuracy, major accuracy penalty for moving, average camouflage and good viewrange
• TDs: Excellent baseline accuracy, massive accuracy penalty for moving, good camouflage and average viewrange
• AFVs: Excellent camouflage and viewrange

To that end, we are introducing the following changes to Tier 1-6 vehicles:

Shell Changes

With the firepower changes, the ideas is to have the AP shells as universal mid-range ammunition, HEAT shells against lighter targets and MBT areas that aren’t the thickest, HEAT-MP shells to deal minimum guaranteed damage, HE shells versus the thinnest armor as well as external modules and HESH shells versus angled armor as well as modules.

We have overhauled the penetration of AP shells of different classes as such:

• MBTs and AFVs lose 25% of nominal penetration at 500m, penetration drop starts at 150m (except for the Leopard series, which starts at 250m)
• LTs lose 20% of nominal penetration at 600m, penetration drop starts at 150m
• TDs lose 15% of nominal penetration at 700m, penetration drop starts at 150m

Furthermore:

• Most HEAT shells lost their special bonus to damage dealt
• Most HESH shells were rebalanced by reducing their baseline damage (it is now 10% lower than that of the corresponding AP shells) and by setting the module damage bonus to 35%
• Tier 1 to 5 HESH shells had their bonus to the chance to set engines on fire reduced from 300% to 100%
• Tier 6 HESH shells had their bonus to the chance to set engines on fire reduced from 300% to 200%
• Light Tanks, Tank Destroyers and Armored Fighting Vehicles now have the same instant ammo type swap ability as the MBTs do

Additional Tier 1-6 Changes

• Overhauled and fixed the armor model of many, if not most, affected MBTs as well as some other vehicles
• Smoke grenades and generators can be used more often across the board
• Most firepower and mobility parameters have been overhauled to a degree
• All Tier 1 to 6 MBTs have had their lower frontal plate thicknesses reduced by 30mm to 100mm in order to make them easier to penetrate up close, but also sufficiently protected at longer distances
• Overhauled the parameters of ATGMs in order for them to become easier to control
• AMX-13 DCA: Improved the armor in stock configuration
• AMX-13 DCA: Added a new armor set upon installing the Improved Turret module, which protects the vehicle frontally from 20mm and 30mm autocannons at 300m or more
• AMX-30B2, AMX-40, AMX-50: These vehicles now have 330m viewrange and 10% camouflage by default
• AMX-30B2: Corrected the camouflage penalty for shooting, it now corresponds to the usual value of 22.5%
• AMX-30B2, AMX-40, AMX-30B2 Brenus: Fixed the internal module layout
• Begleitpanzer 57: HE shell penetration increased from 20mm to 36mm
• BMD-2: Stock ATGM penetration increased from 430mm to 850mm, upgraded ATGM penetration increased from 600mm to 800mm
• BMD-4: 100mm HE shell damage increased from 555 to 700, penetration reduced from 45mm to 40mm
• BMP-2: Upgraded ATGM penetration increased from 750mm to 800mm
• BMP-3: 100mm HE shell damage increased from 555 to 700, penetration reduced from 45mm to 40mm
• BVP M-80A: HE shell penetration increased from 13mm to 16mm
• Dragoon 300: This vehicle now has a proper HESH shell with 215 damage and 350mm penetration
• EE-18 Sucuri II: Ready Rack time between shots changed to 4.29s and the shell reload time to 7.6s
• FV701 Scimitar: PELE shell penetration reduced from 100mm to 90mm
• FV721 Fox: This vehicle now has the Improved Cooling module
• Gvozdika: Fixed the gun depression in order for the gun not to clip into the hull
• Chieftain Mk.6: This vehicle now has the Improved Cooling module
• Chieftain Mk.10: Additional armor thickness on the turret increased from 50mm to 100mm
• IT-1: Reduced the armor across the board
• Leopard 2AV: Fixed this vehicle’s 105mm penetration
• M60: Fixed this tank’s progression
• Magach series: Improved the rate of fire across the board except for Magach 7A (where it was reduced)
• Magach 5 hitpoints increased from 1750 to 2600
• Magach 6B hitpoints increased from 2300 to 2800
• Magach 7A hitpoints increased from 2850 to 3000
• Magach 7C hitpoints increased from 2850 to 3000
• OA-82 Jarmila II: Fixed this vehicle’s bugged black textures
• Sabre is now properly armored with its thickness corresponding to that of the Scorpion Kastet AFV

 

Note: there have been more changes to higher tier vehicles as well, they weren't documented in the patch notes. Feedback on such changes should be noted here as well for completeness.

[Evanduril 0]

Is there any despair ? :)

[Haswell 295]

When things get stealth changed and not necessarily for the better, yes. Have a 9.8k dpm 99A2.

 

[Schlock 11]

Well finally chinese MBTs won't be complete trash.

Also 9k in a tier 8 MBT? Hell yes.

[LeoAegisMaximus 6]

Shell changes thanks to Eisenherz on discord getting a google spreadsheet of ammunition changes

 https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1z7Tf8LPL3klXa2tGbAYqqFNgnbZTxa_A/edit#gid=1465504705

[Grenier 11]

Justs dropping by to say that this is probably the most retarded balance change to any game in video game history. Balance team is straight up incompetent and managed to make 0.33 looks good.

Between the Sherman with 1000+ armor and 10K DPM, the IS-7 that can bounce T10 rounds, the MBT 70 dealing 1144 dmg with HEAT, 880 with AP and 1300 with HE, The Chieftains and their flattened front, there isn't a single thing that isn't fucked up completely. 

EDIT : On top of that, it took them more than A FULL YEAR to deliver this. I'm lost for words.

 

Edited October 7, 2021 by Grenier (see edit history)

[Schlock 11]

This is amazing.

 

[Quantum_Ranger 14]

2 hours ago, LeoAegisMaximus said:

Shell changes thanks to Eisenherz on discord getting a google spreadsheet of ammunition changes

 https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1z7Tf8LPL3klXa2tGbAYqqFNgnbZTxa_A/edit#gid=1465504705

Very useful.  So my York gets a buff if I switch from AP to HESH. Dakka dakka!

I suspect we will also see a lot of ATGM spam.

DVC, QR

[Schlock 11]

Just now, Quantum_Ranger said:

 So my York gets a buff if I switch from AP to HESH

York upper hull is immune to T-15 tandem HEAT ATGMs.

[EbenezerScrooge 5]

enjoy while it last 

[Qbicle 103]

Random bits and bobs from this update:

 

Most vehicles with autocannons now use clips, and the capacity ranges from 20 to 60. It is one of the undocumented changes for low tier vehicles.

 

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Overhauled the parameters of ATGMs in order for them to become easier to control

This is somewhat noticeable, especially for people like me playing with high ping in Asia.

 

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• Most HESH shells were rebalanced by reducing their baseline damage (it is now 10% lower than that of the corresponding AP shells) and by setting the module damage bonus to 35%
• Tier 1 to 5 HESH shells had their bonus to the chance to set engines on fire reduced from 300% to 100%
• Tier 6 HESH shells had their bonus to the chance to set engines on fire reduced from 300% to 200%

A trait that is kind of carried over from high tier 0.33 rebalance ("HESH shells now have significantly higher penetration but also lower damage"), but HESH seems to struggle to find its purpose in many instances, as AP can deal more damage and is easier to use, and HEAT can deal even more damage for weak spot aims. The module damage often feels lacking because of the shells' low damage in nature. Only PISH on ATDU feels significant enough to make a difference as an effective HESH shell, and even then the tank should be paired with Sabrina for maximum effect. One potential and notable use of HESH may be against the Object 279's upper plate, as it was the case way back in 2018. Furthermore, the tier 3 Scorpion would now feel rather feeble because HESH is the only shell available.

 

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Light Tanks, Tank Destroyers and Armored Fighting Vehicles now have the same instant ammo type swap ability as the MBTs do

Interesting to see that instant ammo type swap now also applies to low tier TDs and AFVs, yet not for same classes at tier 7 or above. Instant ammo type swap also doesn't apply to autocannon clips and BMP-3 / BMD-4's 100mm gun.

 

Stats progression don't match well with higher tiers, for example:

• T-90A's HEAT has 890mm penetration and 788 damage
• T-90's HEAT has 770mm penetration and 745 damage
• --(tier break between high tiers and mid/low tiers)--
• T-72A, T-72B, and T-72M2's HEAT has 770mm penetration and 810 damage (tier 7 level of penetration and tier 8+ level of damage)
• T-72 Ural's HEAT has 650mm penetration and 740 damage

Crazily high values of frontal turret and upper front plate armour for many MBTs mean not even tier 10s can punch them. Sure, we can throw realism out of the window if we have to, but these stats are also inconsistent with higher tier armour profiles. Together with different shell damage stats etc, tiers 1-6 and tiers 7-10 feel more or less like two different games under the same name.

 

Role changes (also undocumented):

• Type 62 is reclassified as an MBT
• Rooikat 76 is reclassified as a TD

 

Some of the ongoing issues are still not addressed, such as:

• The lack of missile for BWP-1M Puma
• Poor missile launcher elevation for OT-64 (especially when compared to BMD-2 and BMP-2 of the same tier)
• Low ammo count for Rooikat 76
• No machine gun for some vehicles, e.g. IT-1 and Object 287

 

Overall, the rebalance feels rushed, almost like the time when 0.33 PTS1 was released, except this time it's released directly to live server.

Edited October 11, 2021 by Qbicle
Added no machine gun as one of the ongoing issues with low tiers (see edit history)

[Azdule 28]

Other undocumented changes include - reduction in higher tier MBT's HP pool, while increase in T-14s.  I believe T4 lost 300, ATDU and most others had 100 knocked off.

Fun fact - tier 1 Sherman has more HP than tier 7 object 187 (might be my set up, I was just looking at hp pools in the carrousel).  There also is a world where now tier 6 Russian MBT's have better HEAT than the 640?  I can't remember it's exact figures, but the stats on that ammo used to be tier 7-9 equal.

What's also worrying is, we don't know what we don't know.  At this stage there could have been armor changes to high tier, or changes to commanders skills - we'd have no idea!

 

[Grenier 11]

I guess it is worth mentionning that all the Chieftains have their hitboxes very far from being accurate compared to their real shape. 

The chief 900 pike nose and its driver hatch simply doesn't exist on the armor viewer, it's all flat T-72 style there, and for the earlier Chieftains, their front slope that was a bit rounded on the upper plate and somewhat V shape on the lower are also simply flattened on the armor viewer, T-72 style. Earlier chieftain turrets are also COMPLETELY butchered, the in game armor just being 3 flat square and all the roundness being "add on armor".

[Quantum_Ranger 14]

17 hours ago, Qbicle said:

Most vehicles with autocannons now use clips, and the capacity ranges from 20 to 60. It is one of the undocumented changes for low tier vehicles.

 

Yeah, discovered that York now has 50-round belts, with a ~1.5 reload time between belts. So now one must hit the C key between targets to ensure that you don't have a reload while engaging.  I am left wondering why they didn't include this change in the patch notes.

Even with the HESH pen it feels like most current MBTs have to be attacked from the rear.... so now York is principally effective against squishies.

Fortunately with Storyline I can enjoy unfettered dakka dakka in BMPT-2017.  York was fun while it lasted... but it's definitely less efficient for headhunting now.

QR

[knutliott 41]

58 minutes ago, Quantum_Ranger said:

Yeah, discovered that York now has 50-round belts, with a ~1.5 reload time between belts. 

That's your config. The default is a 2-second reload between clips.  My config has a 1.68-second reload between clips.

I've also heard that its ROF was increased (it's now 400 RPM), but my vague memory says that 400 sounds about right.  So I'm not sure whether or not that is true.

Edited October 8, 2021 by knutliott (see edit history)

[Zafir 14]

The title "Waterproof" got severely nerfed to "Frogman".

[Haswell 295]

The cooldowns for smoke generators and smoke grenades at lower tiers never got improved to 0.33 standard, they still use the same 0.32 reload times.

 

[Azdule 28]

Confirmed that HP change was intended, just for some reason not in the patch notes:

 

 

This also doesn't really explain the thought process behind this - remove HP from a component across all tanks, because at some point in the future, you plan to increase the hp it gives and this reduction would just keep the HP value the same.  

 

Things have discovered in this patch - some tier 6 tanks are now just flat out better than tier 7.  Some lower tier tanks are better armored that tier 10 tanks.  

 

This patch just makes everything more of a mess then it was before.  

[LeoAegisMaximus 6]

The balance is completely broken some lower tier vehicles have ridiculous turret and hull armor.  

Edited October 11, 2021 by LeoAegisMaximus (see edit history)

[Haswell 295]

"Tier 1 vehicle armor reaching 1 meter thick is intended" - balance designer

I don't want to hear ANYBODY arguing for historical accuracy or realism ever again, enjoy your Sherman with 1 meter thick armor.

[knutliott 41]

I mean... the York's hull armor is kinda irrelevant because it has a manned turret that has basically no armor.  So giving it 1m thick hull armor is kind of an intelligence test for players it faces.

Bots don't care one bit.  They shoot the turret anyway, and IIRC always have.

[Grenier 11]

Sooo yup, it's set in stone now, game is fucked, the balance designer set a new world record for "most retarded balance in a game ever", I can't even begin to comprehend the logic behind this... IF there is any... Game future wasn't looking too bright, but now it's pitch black to me...

 

Anyway, noticed how steel is more effective against HEAT compared to AP now?  Even better, the effectiveness factor varies arbitrarily for each vehicle and even varies on the same vehicle for hull and turret. Or is just everything composite now ? I'm thinking too much about the "work" of some completely incompetent individuals...

[Zafir 14]

On 10/10/2021 at 5:51 PM, Azdule said:

This also doesn't really explain the thought process behind this - remove HP from a component across all tanks, because at some point in the future, you plan to increase the hp it gives and this reduction would just keep the HP value the same.

A wild guess? To then conveniently forget about the supposedly later changes/buffs, just like they only half assed reverting the Artillery from their glorious idea of HE direct fire derpgun TD's.

[LeoAegisMaximus 6]

Wait so the stupidly thick chieftain turret armor is balanced? holy shit that turret shits all over the whole Challenger line it has no turret ring weak spot its immune against Tier 10 ATGMs.  

[Haswell 295]

More gems from the shitshow:

What's the point of a ready rack when the intra is just as long as the single shot reload?

Chieftian 900 pike nose is now flat. Completely flat.

VT4, 96B, 99A and 99A2 are now DPM gods at their tiers.

M51 Isherman is the undisputed god in the tier 1-3 bracket, while also having higher DPM than most tier 10s.

Expeditionary Tank unmanned turret now takes full damage.

BVP manned turret now takes reduced, unmanned turret damage.