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In Development: Further changes to AI vehicles

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https://aw.my.games/en/news/general/development-further-changes-ai-vehicles

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As you know already, in the near future, we’ll be introducing wheeled AI vehicles into the game to bring more much-needed diversity to our PvE gameplay. But that’s not the full scope of what we will be doing on that front – today, we’d like to tell you more about the rest.

 

Let’s start with one of the most challenging elements of PvE overall – the Lieutenant vehicles. These are some of the toughest opponents you may run across in this game mode, sporting improved characteristics and a large amount of hitpoints. We, of course, want the Lieutenant vehicles to be challenging with every encounter being a test of your abilities as tankers and strategists.

You probably guessed it from the intro – the Lieutenants are going to get some love. But not the way you are likely thinking. We won’t be just buffing their characteristics. That would be boring. Instead, we’ll be making major changes to the pool of vehicles that can appear as Lieutenants.

From the next update, Lieutenants will be spawning mostly as MBTs. We will be removing various fragile Lieutenants that don’t really provide any significant challenge and we will be replacing them with some really tough customers, including the dreaded Object 490. No worries though, everyone’s favorite T-15 Lieutenant is to stay and will be joined by the following new vehicles:

 

List of new Lieutenant Vehicles (Click to Open)
Spoiler
  • Altay
  • BMPT Mod.2017
  • CATTB
  • M1A1 Storm
  • Object 187
  • Object 279
  • Object 490
  • Object 640
  • Seongun 915
  • Type 10
  • Type 74

 

The following vehicles are getting removed from the Lieutenant vehicle pool:

 

List of removed Lieutenant Vehicles (Click to Open)
Spoiler
  • AMX-10P PAC-90
  • AMX-10 RCR
  • Begleitpanzer 57
  • Dragun 125
  • FV101 Scorpion
  • FV101 Scorpion 90
  • FV107 Scimitar
  • M113 ACAV
  • M8-105 Buford
  • M8-120 Thunderbolt II
  • PT-76
  • PT-85
  • RDF/LT
  • Stingray
  • Wiesel HOT
  • ZBD-86

 

But that’s still not all. As a new mechanic, the Lieutenant vehicles will also start deploying smoke. Not to worry though – they won’t be spamming this ability and will use it only on occasion. Over-use of this ability by the AI vehicles would lead to frustrating gameplay and we definitely don’t want to do that. But, if you see a Lieutenant deploy smoke as soon as you fire at him, don’t be surprised!

With that being said, we’ll also be introducing some changes to all the AI opponents you may encounter in combat. Perhaps the most visible change will be the addition of new vehicles. Aside from the already mentioned wheeled vehicles, we’ll be adding the following machines to the non-Lieutenant AI vehicle pool:

 

List of new AI Vehicles (Click to Open)
Spoiler
  • AS21 Redback
  • BMPT Mod.2000
  • Harimau
  • Griffin 120mm
  • Griffin 50mm
  • IS-7
  • K1A1
  • K2 Black Panther
  • K21
  • Kampfpanzer 70
  • Leopard Revolution
  • TTB
  • Sabra Mk.2
  • M-95 Degman
  • M60-2000
  • T-55M1
  • T-72B3
  • Type 89
  • Type 90
  • VT-5

 

As you can see, some of those are high-Tier ones, which means that you should be encountering the enemies you despise (yes, we are talking about the T-15) that often because there will be a greater choice.

 

Full list of AI Vehicles (Click to Open)
Spoiler
  • Al-Hussein
  • Altay
  • AMX-10P PAC90
  • AMX-10 RCR
  • AMX-13 DCA
  • AMX-30B2
  • AMX-30B2 Brenus
  • AMX-40
  • AMX-50
  • AS21 Redback
  • ASCOD LT-105
  • B1 Centauro
  • B1 Centauro 120
  • B1 Draco
  • Begleitpanzer 57
  • BM Oplot
  • BMD-1
  • BMD-1P
  • BMD-2
  • BMD-2M
  • BMD-4
  • BMP-1
  • BMP-1P
  • BMP-2
  • BMP-3
  • BMP-3M
  • Dragun 125
  • Ramka-99
  • BMPT Mod.2017
  • BMPT-72
  • BMPT Mod.2000
  • BVP Šakal
  • C1 Ariete
  • CATTB
  • Challenger 1
  • Challenger 2
  • Challenger 2 ATDU
  • Sphinx
  • Expeditionary Tank
  • Dragoon 300
  • EE-18 Sucuri II
  • ERC-90 F4 Sagaie
  • FV101 Scorpion
  • FV101 Scorpion 90
  • Scorpion Kastet
  • Chieftain
  • Chieftain 900
  • Chieftain Mk.2
  • Chieftain Mk.11
  • FV438 Swingfire
  • FV510 Warrior
  • Griffin 120mm
  • Griffin 50mm
  • IS-7
  • IT-1
  • CRAB
  • K1A1
  • K2 Black Panther
  • K21
  • K21 XC-8
  • Kampfpanzer 70
  • KTO Rosomak
  • KTO Rosomak M1M
  • LAV-150
  • LAV-150 90
  • LAV-300
  • LAV-600
  • Leclerc
  • Leclerc Protototype
  • Leclerc T40
  • Leopard 1
  • Leopard 1A5
  • Leopard 2
  • Leopard Evolution
  • Leopard Revolution
  • Leopard 2A5
  • Leopard 2A6
  • Leopard 2AX
  • Leopard 2AV
  • M-50 Super Sherman
  • M-51 Super Sherman
  • Sabra Mk.2
  • M-95 Degman
  • M1 Abrams
  • TTB
  • M1128 Stryker
  • M113 ACAV
  • Stryker ADATS
  • M1A1 Abrams
  • M1A1 Storm
  • M1A2 Abrams
  • M1A2C Abrams
  • Bradley FV
  • Bradley AAWS-H
  • M41
  • M48A3
  • M551 Sheridan
  • M60 Patton
  • M60-2000
  • M60A1 Patton
  • M60A2 Patton
  • M60A3 Patton
  • M8-105 Buford
  • M8-120 Thunderbolt II
  • Magach 5
  • Magach 6B
  • Magach 7A
  • Magach 7C
  • Marder 2
  • MBT-70
  • Merkava Mk.1
  • Merkava Mk.2B
  • Merkava Mk.2D
  • Merkava Mk.3D BAZ
  • Merkava Mk.4
  • Merkava Mk.4M
  • QN-506
  • Hunter AFV
  • Object 187
  • Object 279
  • Object 430
  • Object 490
  • Object 640
  • OF-40
  • OT-64 Cobra
  • OT-65A
  • PL-01
  • PLZ-05
  • PLZ-89
  • PT-76
  • PT-85
  • PTL-02 Assaulter
  • PTZ-89
  • SBS Pindad
  • RDF/LT
  • Rooikat 76
  • Sabre
  • VCAC Mephisto
  • Seongun-915
  • Sho't Kal Dalet
  • VBL INGWE
  • Sprut-SD
  • ST1
  • Stingray 1
  • Stingray 2
  • T-14 Armata
  • T-14 Armata 152
  • T-15
  • T-55
  • T-55 Enigma
  • T-55M1
  • T-62
  • T-64
  • T-64A
  • T-72A
  • T-72B
  • T-72B3
  • T-72 Ural
  • T-80
  • T-80B
  • T-80U
  • T-90
  • T-90A
  • T-90MS
  • T92 LT
  • Tiran 6
  • Type 10
  • Type 59
  • Type 62
  • Type 69
  • Type 74
  • Type 80-II
  • Type 85-IIM
  • Type 89
  • Type 90
  • Type 90-II
  • Type 96
  • Type 96A
  • Type 99
  • 9910
  • Type 99A
  • Type 99A2
  • FV721 Fox
  • VBL TOW
  • VBR
  • OA-82 Jarmila-2
  • Vickers VFM5
  • VT-4
  • VT-5
  • Wiesel TOW
  • Wiesel HOT
  • Wilk
  • Wilk XC-8
  • WPB Anders
  • WZ-1224
  • ZBD-86
  • XM1
  • XM1A3 Abrams
  • XM800T
  • ZBL-08
  • Zhalo-S
  • Zubr PSP

 

And, last but not least, the AI behavior will be tweaked as well. We’ve changed the AI spotting mechanics and behavior so that you should take less fire from the AI vehicles that you cannot see yourself.

OyJ283I.jpg

 


Spoiler

 

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Looking at the full list, there are a few vehicles that are potentially concerning, but we will have to wait and see:

  • VBL Ingwe's missiles can be annoying to face while playing T5/6 MBTs, depending on how much they can pen. Many of the T5 tanks already have really weak turret armour.
  • There are also other missile only vehicles, such as VCAC Mephisto and IT-1.
  • Will K21, AS21, and Leclerc T40 use top attack missiles, or they stick to autocannons only?
  • Kinda surprised that SBS Pindad is there too. Its performance is also something to watch out for.
  • And hey Bradley AAWS-H also there.

aMcZOFg.png

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13 hours ago, Qbicle said:

Looking at the full list, there are a few vehicles that are potentially concerning, but we will have to wait and see:

  • VBL Ingwe's missiles can be annoying to face while playing T5/6 MBTs, depending on how much they can pen. Many of the T5 tanks already have really weak turret armour.
  • There are also other missile only vehicles, such as VCAC Mephisto and IT-1.
  • Will K21, AS21, and Leclerc T40 use top attack missiles, or they stick to autocannons only?
  • Kinda surprised that SBS Pindad is there too. Its performance is also something to watch out for.
  • And hey Bradley AAWS-H also there.

oh god the kinetic missiles have atgm's mechanics right they still do chip damage, thank god they doing a pass on AI shooting at you out of render range because that with the kinetic projectiles alpha striking and auto penning you would be bullshit.

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1 hour ago, LeoAegisMaximus said:

oh god the kinetic missiles have atgm's mechanics right they still do chip damage

No they won't. They got some other wonky "features" though.


Spoiler

fdassdaas.jpg.c709df3e98adc5265f232fe9458a3043.jpg

 

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Yea the Kinetic ATGMs are going to be painful if the bradley sits back and snipes because AI will hit pixel perfect on any weak spot it wants to

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Along with these changes they need to remove shared vision and aim bot for all AI vehicles. They also should fix the magic missiles that the AI uses to be affected by SK anti missile systems. They also need to bring the AI vision range down to the same as the player vehicles.

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11 hours ago, JintoLin said:

Along with these changes they need to remove shared vision and aim bot for all AI vehicles. They also should fix the magic missiles that the AI uses to be affected by SK anti missile systems. They also need to bring the AI vision range down to the same as the player vehicles.

The AI operates on exact the same ruleset that players have, so I'm curious as to why you think the AI should have their shared vision removed.

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[Remove] aim bot for all AI vehicles. They also should fix the magic missiles that the AI uses to be affected by SK anti missile systems.

I often see people complaining about "AI aim bot" without actually knowing what the AI does to achieve the accuracy that players experience. The AI does not "cheat" by removing the shot spread to make every shot pin-point accurate, nor does the AI reduce the accuracy penalties for moving or traversing to allow it to make unrealistic snap shots. All of my experience in the game indicates that the AI operates on the same set of rules that players have when it comes to making accurate shots, and that a player can theoretically duplicate any shot that a bot makes. The basic behavoiur of the AI is as follows:

  • At short distances (less than about 100-150m away), the AI knows where all of the armour weak spots are, and will aim for them if they are visible
  • At long distances (more than about 100-150m away), the AI will aim for center of mass
  • The AI can lead moving targets, but in order for this to matter either the target will be showing their weak side armour or the range will mean that AI is aiming for center of mass
  • The AI has no trigger discipline, and will always shoot the instant their gun is both loaded and pointed at the target without waiting for the gun to aim

A few scenarios that are often brought up:

  • "The AI shot me while it was moving at full speed from 200m away" - The accuracy penalty for moving is often small enough for players to make this kind of shot more often than they miss. This is something that players can reliably do if they are shooting at a stationary target or are good at leading moving targets
  • "I was moving at high speed and the AI shot me from halfway across the map" - Any gun in the game is accurate enough to do this when fully aimed. This can be replicated by players, but you need to be exceptionally good at leading moving targets at long range in order to do it
  • "The AI did a 180 degree snap shot and hit me" - I have never seen an AI manage to do this past about 150m, nor have I ever managed to do this past said range. The accuracy penalties for traversing the hull and turret are usually too large for this to be possible at anything other than relatively short ranges. However, inside those relatively short ranges this is something that is entirely possible for both players and bots to do

Missiles are an entirely different beast when it comes to the AI. The missiles that the AI uses are the exact same missiles that players have access to, with the same maneuverability and the same venerability to soft-kill APS. However, the way the AI works pushes the performance of the missile to the extreme. The AI actually makes corrective commands to the missile many times per second, meaning that any potential factor that might cause the missile to miss (the player moved, the player's soft-kill APS tried diverting the missile) are accounted for near-instantaneously. This as far as I can tell, this is the only thing the AI does that cannot be replicated by a human player since the reaction time and amount of precision required are far beyond what any human is capable of. It might be possible to make the missiles less punishing for players by reducing the frequency that the AI corrects the missile's flight path, but this could very easily be overdone to the point where AI missiles are just unguided rockets.

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They also need to bring the AI vision range down to the same as the player vehicles.

I'm going to guess that you're referring to the lieutenants here, as all of the other bot types have vision ranges that are quite often lower than that of a player vehicle of the same type. While lieutenants get the standard PvP view ranges, the bots and players get the reduced PvE view ranges (which are about half of what the PvP view ranges are). However, while players can use commander skills and retrofits to improve their view range, camo factor, and foliage spotting/concealment values, the bots cannot. The end result is that players with a good build and positioning can spot and gun down regular bots without any risk to themselves, while lieutenants require a level of caution from players befitting of their mini-boss status.

Edited by MK_Regular (see edit history)
  • Upvote 2

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20 hours ago, MK_Regular said:

Missiles are an entirely different beast when it comes to the AI. The missiles that the AI uses are the exact same missiles that players have access to, with the same maneuverability and the same venerability to soft-kill APS. However, the way the AI works pushes the performance of the missile to the extreme. The AI actually makes corrective commands to the missile many times per second, meaning that any potential factor that might cause the missile to miss (the player moved, the player's soft-kill APS tried diverting the missile) are accounted for near-instantaneously. This as far as I can tell, this is the only thing the AI does that cannot be replicated by a human player since the reaction time and amount of precision required are far beyond what any human is capable of. It might be possible to make the missiles less punishing for players by reducing the frequency that the AI corrects the missile's flight path, but this could very easily be overdone to the point where AI missiles are just unguided rockets.

That may be true, but the effect is that soft kill APS does not work the same way against bots as it does against player vehicles. That is the problem. You spend time and in-game credits to unlock a SK APS and it is worthless in PvE matches, most people play PvE, this makes those systems worthless. The has the effect of cheating many, if not most of the players.

 

20 hours ago, MK_Regular said:

I often see people complaining about "AI aim bot" without actually knowing what the AI does to achieve the accuracy that players experience. The AI does not "cheat" by removing the shot spread to make every shot pin-point accurate, nor does the AI reduce the accuracy penalties for moving or traversing to allow it to make unrealistic snap shots. All of my experience in the game indicates that the AI operates on the same set of rules that players have when it comes to making accurate shots, and that a player can theoretically duplicate any shot that a bot makes.

The "Aim bot" I am referring to is that they programed the bots to mimic what each human player desired result is with robotic speed and precision. They have the bots lock onto the desired point of impact as fast as a player can find that same point with their eyes, the only delay is for the vehicle to move the gun into position. The bots are running from the server, they don't have to deal with transmission lag from player computer, to the server, and back again. The bots don't have input lag that humans do with moving their hands and fingers to move the mouse or other input device to move the cross hair onto target, not to mention have to correct for moving to far and then over correction.  Some humans can get close to matching the output of the bots as far as accuracy goes, but they are outliers and cannot be counted. What they need to do is to have for the rank and file bots is have the effective accuracy and effect on target to be the same as a slightly below average human player. The LT class bots can be the same as a above average player but not one of the top tier players.

In both cases my issue is not with how the bots are doing things, it is the effect. Which in my opinion is the same effect as human players using cheats. 

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Thinking of bot AI as weirdly programmed robotic humanoids (like "FO4" synths) sitting in tanks really helps. There is way too much of weird, erratic and rigged behavior to take it seriously and believe it mimics human players.

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Some first impressions

  • Many low HP wheeled AFV/TD behave like they are MBT, AI as even more suicidal now by appearance
  • While some of us asked for more enforced and protected bots, so it could reverse damage dealing balance between autocannons and gunners, the current AI pool is even more soft-skin squishy - with more favourtism to autocannons
  • AI bots with 2 ATGM clip fire them in low delay between them. Usually I don't pay attention on such random crap from Swingfire or Termi 2.
  • Some cap "defending" locations are capped faster and earlier, once you reach this point of defence, the place is full of ATGM and autocannon spam nonsense, with best vision and accuracy. How player driven squishy vehicles are supposed to handle such situations, i have no idea.
  • Using smoke by "stronk" bots is not well implemented, it is like someone unexperienced plays pve and uses the smoke without much  need or thinking. 
  • "Stronk' bots - i saw AI Altay in more than half of games. The thing is LT on steroids just like Type 10 and somewhat AX too, and should play like LT/TD, meaning - carefully. This "best protection" pool should only consists of Chally ATDU, Merkava, XM1A3, T-14-152, probably CATTB and 490.

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3 hours ago, dfnce said:

This "best protection" pool should only consists of Chally ATDU, Merkava, XM1A3, T-14-152, probably CATTB and 490.

CATTB won't fare well in PvE where everyone is carrying HEAT as their primary ammo load.  According to what they told us when it was nerfed several times, the CATTB is (allegedly) supposed to be strong vs AP and weak vs HEAT.

The fact that it has the same gun and ammo as the XM1A3 but for some inexplicable reason does less damage, has less pen, and has a lower rate of fire can only be explained as BALANS.  One might be able to argue that the lower rate of fire is to offset the fact that it's packing Quickdraw on the 140, but only the lower rate of fire.  The damage and pen should be the same.

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