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Norse_Viking

Arty back in Glops test

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So basically do a "test" while there were no significant changes to the whole matter in general and expecting different results? Quite pointless. 

If this is the devs arguing to why to introduce arty to glops again I'm lost anyways:

Quote

Over the last couple of months, we’ve carefully analyzed both your feedback and our data regarding the balance of the Global Operations mode. It’s no secret that with the introduction of several vehicles and features (such as the LOSAT kinetic ATGMs), the gameplay balance of – especially high-Tier – Global Operations was somewhat disrupted, leading to teams full of one type of vehicles (such as the Wilk XC-8 situation before American Dream season). [...] 

but one has to find the right counter to the vehicles that tend to outperform the most (and are therefore the most popular) such as various long-range Tank Destroyers [...]

Very simply put, the best counter to such vehicles is artillery.

It makes my blood boil. If anyone here is able to fully explain to me how Arty is going to counter such tanks and campers in general more effective than a good player in a scout. Only by either using the phosphorus shell (which is ineffective to search for campers) or blindshots (ineffective aswell) gets a free upvote :winkseal:.

31 minutes ago, Norse_Viking said:

Well its easy damage to farm for a yoloing sphinx or other fast scout. 

I'll just do this for the fun of it. Anyways, there needs to be a proper counter for arty aswell right? :kek:

31 minutes ago, Norse_Viking said:

But gonna use the possibility to try the mode going shotgun with the arty.

Honestly I'm quite close to just grab 2mio reputation to unlock the PLZ05 just for the fun of shotgunning enemies.

Edited by TeyKey1 (see edit history)

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fdassdaas.jpg.c709df3e98adc5265f232fe9458a3043.jpg

 

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For me its more the players and not the arty that is the problem. As long as there are not more than 2 arties on each side.

However it always seem to me that most arty players are entitled toxic shits, that blame the entire team when they get killed. Because apparantly they should have a personal squad that protects them, when they sit in their corner of the map pumping shells.

53 minutes ago, TeyKey1 said:

It makes my blood boil. If anyone here is able to fully explain to me how Arty is going to counter such tanks and campers in general more effective than a good player in a scout. Only by either using the phosphorus shell (which is ineffective to search for campers) or blindshots (ineffective aswell) gets a free upvote :winkseal:.

I see no way a arty can outperform a scout in getting rid of the campers. The moment a camper is spotted they move, making it hard to hit with arty.

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8 hours ago, Norse_Viking said:

Not a fan of arty returning in Glops.

Surprisingly, I'm actually rather enthusiastic about their return. Most of my experiences during the previous test were actually positive, during which I never even played the artillery...

While incoming shells were annoying, friendly artillery helped tremendously in numerous occasions, lighting up campers/snipers, deploying smoke on objective and/or wildcard caps, and even occasionally resetting some points (when they had LoS/LoF).

I think many players have become accustomed to mortar infantry already, so many of them already understand the importance of repositioning and cover. Consequently, the incorporation of artillery back into the game should be quite smooth and straightforward. 

In addition, because artillery isn't nearly as dependent on ping, artillery in GlOps may be a win-win opportunity, as players will no longer be required to slog through PvE to grind their artillery; which may subsequently result in GlOps becoming more accessible to a wider range of players (potentially shorter queue times).

8 hours ago, TeyKey1 said:

It makes my blood boil. If anyone here is able to fully explain to me how Arty is going to counter such tanks and campers in general more effective than a good player in a scout. Only by either using the phosphorus shell (which is ineffective to search for campers) or blindshots (ineffective aswell) gets a free upvote :winkseal:.

Well, since you asked, I may as well take a swing at it ;)

While artillery is definitely not as effective as an active/passive spotter vehicle (such as an AFV or even LT), their white phosphorus rounds allow them to target areas which scouts cannot realistically reach and/or reach in time. 

Using only the southwestern quarter of Grindelwald (a larger GlOps map) as an example, there are many common camping/sniping spots frequented by MGMs, Hellfires, Wilks, and even some retarded LTs:

sgEbCVZ.png

The aforementioned passive or even active spotters (of the northern (blue) team) will have a tough time driving to and spotting at these locations. While safety/security is certainly a primary concern when deciding to spot, efficiency (or risk/reward) is also a significant element which should be considered. 

Therefore a SPHINX (for example) which drives recklessly towards enemy positions will not only most likely perish, but their assisting damage is far from guaranteed; as the presence of campers/snipers in the area they decide to rush is not assured, while their team may also have difficulties firing at/hitting (never mind killing) spotted enemies (due to distance, oblique angles, smoke, moving, the SPHINX dying, etc.).

Furthermore, the amount of time required to drive the distance to these marked areas and respawn must also be accounted for. Although yolo rush spotting can be effective, in most scenarios, the potential benefit from the tactic (if you can call it that) is simply not worth the time and/or effort put in.

This is where artillery can come in. Since shells travel much farther and faster than vehicles, artillery can observe tracer/missile trails and launch WP at [annoying-ass] snipers sitting at the rear or near spawn. Although assisting damage in this case is also not a guarantee, there are far fewer risks, but similar (if not equal) potential rewards.

However, I still agree that their description of WP shells being used primarily to spot snipers/campers is not the greatest promotion/expected use of artillery. If that was the case, the illumination rounds would be retained and/or the cooldown and ammunition count for WP shells should be reduced and increased respectively. 

9 hours ago, Norse_Viking said:

The moment a camper is spotted they move, making it hard to hit with arty.

I don't think they mentioned artillery were designed to destroy or cause significant damage to campers. Arty (in their current state) is largely a support class, which is where their smoke and WP shells come into play.   

IMO, WP is most useful for lighting up enemies capturing objectives (whether that be a wildcard or point). I'll use Roughneck (a rather unbalanced GlOps map) as an example here:

JBhysaJ.png

Apologies for the unmarked map, I was too lazy to boot up the game to take another screenshot, so I stole this image from the AW wiki.

Assume we are the southeastern team (major disadvantage). One of the very few strategies which can create an early lead (and a greater chance for victory) for us is capturing point 1 across the river (and holding it for as long as possible). Currently, this strategy is far more viable if a couple of vehicles (at least one spotter) position themselves west of the refinery (as marked in green) to spot and fire into the flanks of enemies attempting to capture the point initially.

However, with artillery WP shells, a flanking element is no longer a necessity (for spotting). This frees up more vehicles (preferably MBTs) to push, capture, and [hopefully] hold the point. Similarly, the same WP shells can also help the [southeastern] team with other objectives, such as point 4 and 7, as well as the gunship zone(s). 

10 hours ago, TeyKey1 said:

Honestly I'm quite close to just grab 2mio reputation to unlock the PLZ05 just for the fun of shotgunning enemies.

I did the same, except I only skipped through the previous arty to get to the PLZ. I plan to grind the PLZ myself ;)

9 hours ago, Norse_Viking said:

For me its more the players and not the arty that is the problem. As long as there are not more than 2 arties on each side.

Agreed. A decent artillery player can be very helpful and a certain bonus to GlOps QoL, however, a bad one can be annoying at best, ban-worthy at worst.

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I used to really like playing arty.

Then they ruined it, by removing hera shells, and more importantly making it actually a bad, direct--fire TD, with a weird sighting system.

If it was real, shoot over things arty, I'd be happy to have it back but as it is....

No.

 


"Yog-Sothoth knows the gate. Yog-Sothoth is the gate. Yog-Sothoth is the key and guardian of the gate. Past, present, future, all are one in Yog-Sothoth."

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Campers were creatures of habit in WOT, killed many with blind fire, are they that different in AW? not that this affects me as i'm not a gloper,



 

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4 hours ago, Lenticulas said:

Then they ruined it, by removing hera shells, and more importantly making it actually a bad, direct--fire TD, with a weird sighting system.

If it was real, shoot over things arty, I'd be happy to have it back but as it is....

I can't agree to your sentiments here.

Artillery in its current form is intended to provide fire support, not damage output. In this sense, their weaponry is not meant to do massive amounts of damage, but designed to punish [often well-armored] immobile targets.

  • Firing at the front of MBTs in the test range, I can consistently do ~300-500 damage with every shell I fire, which is rather impressive in my books. 
  • Hitting less armoured targets such as LTs and TDs, the damage increases to ~700-900 damage per round and causes additional module damage/destruction. 
  • Penetrating the engine deck of an MBT, I can easily deal over 1000 damage while also destroying the engine. 

Ever since the nerf to MBT acceleration/mobility,  they have become far easier to hit on the move, so even with the low muzzle velocity of artillery HE shells, I can foresee artillery hitting MBTs by appropriately leading their shots. 

However, if HERA was still an optional ammo type for artillery, incoming artillery would be much harder to avoid, with little time to react. There would be little incentive to fire HE over HERA, support the team instead of farming damage, or even relocate in artillery. Moving targets would also be far easier to hit and if the vehicle in motion on the receiving end of fire was a lightly armored AFV or LT, I doubt their games would be particularly enjoyable. 

As for the "direct-fire TD" claim, I can understand where you are coming from (especially regarding the trajectory of shells); but there are still distinct differences between the two classes. I'll spare everyone from my elaboration, but both classes will each have their advantages and disadvantages.

3 hours ago, Travlla said:

Campers were creatures of habit in WOT, killed many with blind fire, are they that different in AW?

You can certainly still blind fire them, but campers (and most vehicles for that matter) in AW generally have ridiculously high penetration, module damage, and/or DPM (or a combination of these traits). When a firing line of snipers in AW concentrates fire on a single target, they will generally evaporate (which was (and still is) a major consideration for the 0.33 rebalance).

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Well shotgun arty works ok. But then I recommend the plz. that fast 4 shot damage burst is needed. 

Had a few matches yesterday where I saw Teykey in his Plz, he had some pretty nice damage. Did alot better than i did going shotgun. And the muppet got me twice...

 

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1 hour ago, Norse_Viking said:

And the muppet got me twice...

Damn it was so much fun yesterday :kek: Wonder if it gets any better when I fully research this thing.

11 hours ago, di_duncan said:

Well, since you asked, I may as well take a swing at it ;)

While everything you say is true and to a certain extent what I'm doing in my arty glops matches I can't agree that arty is able to replace a good scout for hunting campers (especially on Grindelwald where a good scout easily rules the game).

The WP rounds are nice and an experienced player is surely able to blindshot campers with it. However, there are two significant drawbacks:

  • It has a very long reload of 30s, making it quite ineffective as you need to make your shots count and still have a ~20s waiting time.
  • You need to have a friendly vehicle which is actually able to spot the WP affected enemies (On large maps like Grindelwald this can already become a problem)

A decent Scout player who can basically just sit on G2 and thus even block all the camping vehicles from reaching a shooting position is way more effective in countering those vehicles. As a plus the Scout can capture points aswell and switch flanks fast while in an arty, depending on your position, this can be harder to achieve.

The arty has a time advantage for sure but after 30s most scouts have already reached their positions. The benefit of this is minimal as long as you don't compare it to a suicidal scout.

We also need to consider player skill of the MGM and Wilk players. The decent ones usually reside close to hard cover making WP shells useless due to their small radius, as the enemy can simply reverse into cover while suffering minimal damage (and with some luck even without getting spotted at all. After 10s he can already return to his location and continue fighting targets.

12 hours ago, di_duncan said:

I did the same, except I only skipped through the previous arty to get to the PLZ. I plan to grind the PLZ myself ;)

That's my intention aswell.

Right now Arty is quite a joke. You can do whatever you want but the rewards you get for it are a joke. I was resetting caps all day long even capping myself but due to the lack of damage I never managed to get a top team placement. Additionally the smoke shells are quite useless as long as you can't switch instantly between WP and smoke. An arty player even saved my life with smoke yesterday but I highly doubt that he got any credits or XP rewarded for this.

The trajectory of arty should stay this way otherwise it massively promotes arty camping. With some planned movement you can reach lots of caps and other important spots spawn camper artys wouldn't be able to cover. This promotes skillful play and rewards an active playstyle.


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Hopefully arty is removed from GLOPS, otherwise players will piss and moan, and   it will get nerfed into the ground, making it useless, i fully understand why a large % of pvpers and glops players are against it, and would want it nerfed if it stays in glops,  So for the sake of people who enjoy arty in pve, Just say no to arty in glops, oh and Teykey1 arty is not played for rewards, if it was no one would ever play it, it's all about the love, the love of dropping large caliber HE rounds on peoples heads 



 

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6 hours ago, Travlla said:

Hopefully arty is removed from GLOPS, otherwise players will piss and moan, and   it will get nerfed into the ground, making it useless, i fully understand why a large % of pvpers and glops players are against it, and would want it nerfed if it stays in glops,  So for the sake of people who enjoy arty in pve, Just say no to arty in glops, oh and Teykey1 arty is not played for rewards, if it was no one would ever play it, it's all about the love, the love of dropping large caliber HE rounds on peoples heads 

sounds legit

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6 hours ago, Travlla said:

the love, the love of dropping large caliber HE rounds on peoples heads

The love of dropping large calibre HD round on campers' heads for me,

and actually illumination star-shells

  • Upvote 1

"Yog-Sothoth knows the gate. Yog-Sothoth is the gate. Yog-Sothoth is the key and guardian of the gate. Past, present, future, all are one in Yog-Sothoth."

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But let's get real here, if mortar is not a problem arty shouldn't be a problem as well... Not that this won't stop the crybabies. Mortar can lob shells over more buildings shoots faster and is automatic... I mean arty has the incoming shell indicator, so this should be warning enough? You just need to move when you see it. Then again I haven't really played glops yet, so we will see

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On 7/18/2020 at 3:18 AM, Lenticulas said:

The love of dropping large calibre HD round on campers' heads for me,

and actually illumination star-shells

Yes they have given us something to do during the long ass reload, perfect for a gaggle of Bradleys, 



 

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Or you could also add, for the higher tiers, MRSI (Multiple Round Simultaneous Impact) to the tool box.

:apseal:

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On 7/19/2020 at 7:15 AM, JintoLin said:

MRSI (Multiple Round Simultaneous Impact) to the tool box.

Basically the current PLZ with the stock gun...

On a similar note, nerf the burst damage on the PLZ please.  

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On 7/21/2020 at 4:58 AM, di_duncan said:

On a similar note, nerf the burst damage on the PLZ please.  

Please no :brokenseal2k:

I mean it's currently the only feasible option to perform mediocre in an arty in GLOPS due to the OK damage output. I know arty is not meant to have good damage output but if they really want to make it a support only vehicle they should give it more options to do so and actually reward those actions properly. Both of this is not the case at all currently. 

Only way to perform at least semi decent right now is to cause as much damage possible and try to cap to earn some GLOPS-points.


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9 hours ago, TeyKey1 said:

I mean it's currently the only feasible option to perform mediocre in an arty in GLOPS due to the OK damage output. I know arty is not meant to have good damage output but if they really want to make it a support only vehicle they should give it more options to do so and actually reward those actions properly. Both of this is not the case at all currently. 

Only way to perform at least semi decent right now is to cause as much damage possible and try to cap to earn some GLOPS-points.

I can sympathize, but it's the burst which is utter ridiculous for the PLZ. I can respect arty shotgunners, but to have 4 rounds of indirect fire launched nearly simultaneously against me is not enjoyable in the slightest.

Increase the intra-clip reload to reasonable levels and I'll be satisfied.

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6 minutes ago, di_duncan said:

I can sympathize, but it's the burst which is utter ridiculous for the PLZ. I can respect arty shotgunners, but to have 4 rounds of indirect fire launched nearly simultaneously against me is not enjoyable in the slightest.

Increase the intra-clip reload to reasonable levels and I'll be satisfied.

True that. Basically it was never intended to do that but it's a valid and effective tactic now. The main problem is that the support that arty can provide is not rewarded at all. This makes it necessary to deal a high amount of damage & cap as much as possible to reach an acceptable result. It's definitely something that needs to be looked into. Otherwise arty will just stay super useless.


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15 minutes ago, TeyKey1 said:

... that the support that arty can provide is not rewarded at all. This makes it necessary to deal a high amount of damage & cap as much as possible...

This sort of sums up the... ambivalent attitude about arty from pvp etc. from years ago. Everyone wants all the members of their team to contribute, no one wants to have a bunch of vehicles on their side that are essentially useless, and entirely contradictorally no one wants to endlessly be hammered by Death from Above.

The arguments were: remove arty because its useless, or if art does something, remove it because it's too effective. Anyway, the debate has moved on, or possibly that the obsessed WoT arty haters have moved on.

... enough of digging up dead controversy. We don't need it.

Arty in glops doesn't seem to be OP at the moment, there are vehicles FAR MORE in need of the nerf-hammer. And yes, if arty is to be a support class, it's only logical to give it the tools for the job: more support abilities

 

Edited by Lenticulas (see edit history)

"Yog-Sothoth knows the gate. Yog-Sothoth is the gate. Yog-Sothoth is the key and guardian of the gate. Past, present, future, all are one in Yog-Sothoth."

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On 7/17/2020 at 8:24 PM, Travlla said:

Hopefully arty is removed from GLOPS, otherwise players will piss and moan, and   it will get nerfed into the ground, making it useless, i fully understand why a large % of pvpers and glops players are against it, and would want it nerfed if it stays in glops,  So for the sake of people who enjoy arty in pve, Just say no to arty in glops, oh and Teykey1 arty is not played for rewards, if it was no one would ever play it, it's all about the love, the love of dropping large caliber HE rounds on peoples heads 

 

On 7/21/2020 at 12:58 PM, di_duncan said:

Basically the current PLZ with the stock gun...

On a similar note, nerf the burst damage on the PLZ please.  

 

On 7/23/2020 at 4:16 AM, di_duncan said:

I can sympathize, but it's the burst which is utter ridiculous for the PLZ. I can respect arty shotgunners, but to have 4 rounds of indirect fire launched nearly simultaneously against me is not enjoyable in the slightest.

Increase the intra-clip reload to reasonable levels and I'll be satisfied.

Evidence of pissing and moaning , I rest my fwarking case for keeping arty out of GLOPS, not a lot of respect from arty drivers who only play shotgun style from me, they die quickly leaving the team down a tank, usually not long into the game, personally if i want to shotgun something, i get my actual shotgun out and shoot shit, 

Edited by Travlla (see edit history)


 

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5 hours ago, Travlla said:

they die quickly leaving the team down a tank

I actually performed quite good using such tactics in combination with the traditional arty stuff in my PLZ-05. I did a stream on it and was quite often ending up in the top rows of my team. Not that this is the way arty should work but it's clearly the meta at least for the PLZ-05. Additionally you help your team a lot more by actually capping due to the shotgun mode than staying in the own spawn for the duration of the battle.

Nevertheless, arty needs some changes to become more useful and the rewards for such support should be rewarded better than now. I think according to the user-questionnaire which was done some months ago iirc arty will stay in GLOPS for sure no matter how much we hate it :happyseal:

 

 


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2 hours ago, TeyKey1 said:

I actually performed quite good using such tactics in combination with the traditional arty stuff in my PLZ-05. I did a stream on it and was quite often ending up in the top rows of my team. Not that this is the way arty should work but it's clearly the meta at least for the PLZ-05. Additionally you help your team a lot more by actually capping due to the shotgun mode than staying in the own spawn for the duration of the battle.

Nevertheless, arty needs some changes to become more useful and the rewards for such support should be rewarded better than now. I think according to the user-questionnaire which was done some months ago iirc arty will stay in GLOPS for sure no matter how much we hate it :happyseal:

 

 

My shotgun criticism was for PVE (will edit to reflect that),  the bots tear them apart,  i will do it, if every one has died, but the maps i play arty on, mean defending the cap, very hard to do solo in arty, head on down the pointy end of Cerberus or its sister map, in an arty, all you find is death and misery, sure i will take a few with me, but a dead arty that has done less than 5k damage, isn't helping the team much if at all, the 3 different modes that make this game so good, are also it's biggest pain in the ass,  change something so it's better for PVE then you piss off PVP/GLOPS  players, and vice versa, This rebalance they are about to do, will more than likely be great for PVP/GLOPS, but a kick in the face for PVE peeps ,  I can also see arty  being  nerfed into some quasi derp short range TD shitbox to appease GLOPS players, :facepalmk:  

 

Does alright for a super useless class :classic_tongue:

 

 

 

 

ScreenShot0617.jpg



 

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Everytime i take an arty in pve, i go shotgun and usually do pretty well compared to the rest of the team. 

Its more about the players than the vehicle.

It pains me more to see players bringing terminators, t15s, marders and see them in the bottom list of damage done. 

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17 hours ago, Norse_Viking said:

Everytime i take an arty in pve, i go shotgun and usually do pretty well compared to the rest of the team. 

Its more about the players than the vehicle.

It pains me more to see players bringing terminators, t15s, marders and see them in the bottom list of damage done. 

Mate you are one of the rare ones then, respect to you sir ,  i have rarely  seen arty do well shotgunning in PVE,  I did see a great shotgunner in the 4th chapter of spec ops thou ,he kicked ass, maybe it was you?  most arty in that chapter dies in the 1st 3 mins and doesn't respawn, just trying to get their 20 battles so they can get the vehicle's in the far east medal, 



 

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