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Ofelia needs a makeover

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18 minutes ago, di_duncan said:

 

@itzjustricken all is said and done, I would rather nuke her for PvE than keep her in her current state for GlOps. Her overall viability in one mode should not overrule the quality of life of another. I mean Alisa was never (and still isn't) a decent commander for PvP or GlOps, but I have no complaints in that regard.  

I might not know how this forum works and I am on mobile... So sorry for the double quite 

18 minutes ago, di_duncan said:

When all is said and done, I would rather nuke her for PvE than keep her in her current state for GlOps. Her overall viability in one mode should not overrule the quality of life of another. I mean Alisa was never (and still isn't) a decent commander for PvP or GlOps, but I have no complaints in that regard.  

I agree ophi doesn't have to be op because she is a bp commander or anything like that... I mean Harper is absolute dogshit in all game modes. However I still believe that screwing paying customers over by nerfing stuff they paid for shouldn't be done in a too big extent. Ultimately this could mean less paying customers and in this way it could be detrimental to the lifespan of the game... I.e just pulling the plug because the game doesn't make any money 

 

Edited by itzjustrick (see edit history)

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40 minutes ago, itzjustrick said:

However I still believe that screwing paying customers over by nerfing stuff they paid for shouldn't be done in a too big extent. Ultimately this could mean less paying customers and in this way it could be detrimental to the lifespan of the game

I understand your concerns and I'm sympathetic to the [numerous] challenges/compromises. I'm fully aware of the potential repercussions, and I am also trying to take cashflow and upkeep into consideration (see my response to a topic regarding revamped sounds).

Unfortunately, Ophelia's current state could also very well be driving players away from this game as we speak. I'm hoping (and rather confident) that the AW playerbase will accept such a nerf to Ophelia if the changes are universally applied (nerfing Ophelia for all).

I think the majority of the AW community can agree that something has to be done. The question here is what. Perhaps @Silentstalker can put this dilemma to a poll?

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51 minutes ago, di_duncan said:

Based on her strengths and the capabilities of the current roster of commanders, Ophelia should not be optimized (or commonly used for that matter) for PvE play. If PvE players are looking for a commander that increases DPM output, Vincent or even Cortez are arguably better options. However, because Ophelia is able to provide significant buffs to both reload speed and view range (both being rather important in PvE), any player can simply use her to maximize both damage and assist (spotting) damage.

Furthermore, if she is a meta commander in all vehicles, modes, and tiers (even without her primary ability), something must be awry with the overall commander balance as well. If she does not receive a nerf, then can we expect a sweeping buff to the other, less viable commanders (as @itzjustrick has mentioned)?

When all is said and done, I would rather nuke her for PvE than keep her in her current state for GlOps. Her overall viability in one mode should not overrule the quality of life of another. I mean Alisa was never (and still isn't) a decent commander for PvP or GlOps, but I have no complaints in that regard.  

That's just it - she isn't meta in PvE.  I use her in only a handful of vehicles that I use regularly, and that's because those particular vehicles are the types of vehicles that tend to only get spotted when in a bad position.  I.e. they're high damage output but rely on stealth to use it, so if/when they get spotted it's pretty instantly bad news.  She feels rather nicely balanced for PvE.

Also, saying that you can "maximze" Ophelia for both damage and spotting is something of a misnomer for PvE.  VR is tied heavily to camo, and to "optimize" Ophelia for VR you lose 8% camo.  You'd pretty much always prefer Juan Carlos over Ophelia for spotting purposes.  So while that's fine if you only want to use her in MBTs, that's really the only use for her once you've done that.  It's not a great build overall in PvE, in no small part because if you're spotting in an MBT you're up front where you don't need bonus VR from your commander, so it's wasted commander skills.

Optimizing her for reload speed similarly has side effects, specifically to health.  Again - not all that bad if you only want to use her in MBTs, but it's risky for other applications.  I've done that because I'm only using her key ability as a safety valve if I'm suddenly spotted and insta-gibbed, but it wouldn't be a good thing to do if you wanted to use her more generally.  I'm not even sure it's a good build for MBTs because they need their health... losing 15% health for reload speed is a suspect trade-off for an MBT.

Anyway the point is that people bought Ophelia because of her abilities.  I doubt anyone bought Alyssa specifically to use for PvP or GLOPS, so making her worse in PvP or GLOPS wouldn't matter to them.  I'm sure that people did buy Ophelia for PvE, though, so you can't nuke her for PvE without pissing people off.  

Unlike vehicle balance, I wouldn't be opposed to a general buff to commanders.  Even the best ones feel no better or maybe slightly better than a single retrofit, and the bad ones basically just feel useless.  Buffing all of the commanders up to retrofit level doesn't seem like a bad thing, provided they're different enough to still feel unique compared to each other.

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5 minutes ago, knutliott said:

Also, saying that you can "maximze" Ophelia for both damage and spotting is something of a misnomer for PvE.  VR is tied heavily to camo, and to "optimize" Ophelia for VR you lose 8% camo.  You'd pretty much always prefer Juan Carlos over Ophelia for spotting purposes.

5 minutes ago, knutliott said:

So while that's fine if you only want to use her in MBTs, that's really the only use for her once you've done that.

Sorry, that's what I meant. Ophelia should be primarily used by MBTs anyways.

7 minutes ago, knutliott said:

Optimizing her for reload speed similarly has side effects, specifically to health.

Even without dipping into the reload skills which sacrifice HP, Ophelia currently has the highest consistent reload bonus of any commander. To have this advantage while also benefiting from her extremely powerful basic skill is rather unfair, wouldn't you say?

14 minutes ago, knutliott said:

Anyway the point is that people bought Ophelia because of her abilities.  I doubt anyone bought Alyssa specifically to use for PvP or GLOPS, so making her worse in PvP or GLOPS wouldn't matter to them.  I'm sure that people did buy Ophelia for PvE, though, so you can't nuke her for PvE without pissing people off.

Any changes will have its opposition.

Considering PvE is against AI/bots while PvP is played against human opponents, I would argue that the disruption Ophelia causes in GlOps is a far more prominent/pressing matter than her performance in PvE.

  • The consequence of nerfing Ophelia in PvE is minimal (less damage or assisting perhaps)
    • Mainly cooperative and not competitive
    • Can still be enjoyable without Ophelia
  • Nerfing Ophelia in PvP would result in a more equal playing field for all
    • Would simultaneously decrease the effectiveness of several overperforming vehicles
      • MTLB
      • Pindad
      • Marder 2

If any change to her is global and all-inclusive, the resulting backlash would likely be minimized, especially given her atrocious reputation and how many players obtained Ophelia through the BP. PvE players can continue to enjoy the same gaming experience (albeit with a different commander), while PvP should become far less toxic, frustrating, and/or imbalanced.

Any solution will involve compromise, the best option must provide the greatest benefit with the fewest downsides.

55 minutes ago, knutliott said:

Unlike vehicle balance, I wouldn't be opposed to a general buff to commanders.  Even the best ones feel no better or maybe slightly better than a single retrofit, and the bad ones basically just feel useless.  Buffing all of the commanders up to retrofit level doesn't seem like a bad thing, provided they're different enough to still feel unique compared to each other.

This is a slippery slope. altering commanders in PvE is certainly no big deal, but PvP modes would be greatly affected. Imagine random battles and/or GlOps matches with all commanders performing on par with Ophelia:

  • Extensive crew and/or module damage upon every penetrating hit.
  • Gun handling characteristics (accuracy, aim time) would become irrelevant.
  • Tracks would repair in a couple of seconds
  • DPM would increase dramatically
  • HP pools would balloon, but asymmetrically
  • Camouflage and foliage would lose most, if not all, utility

Doesn't seem fun to me. 

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7 hours ago, knutliott said:

Unlike vehicle balance, I wouldn't be opposed to a general buff to commanders.  Even the best ones feel no better or maybe slightly better than a single retrofit, and the bad ones basically just feel useless.  Buffing all of the commanders up to retrofit level doesn't seem like a bad thing, provided they're different enough to still feel unique compared to each other.

Maybe you could, but I would be wary of giving veterans even more advantages than new players. Just as retros are totally inaccessible to newbies, leveled commanders are as well... This means that we must take into account that someone with a bad commander can still fight someone with a good commander in for example pvp. This must also have some kind of balance, so that should be taken into account.  

But I agree we can make certain commanders have more influence. Although I think it should max out at the level ophelia or Douglas currently are.

 

Edited by itzjustrick (see edit history)

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Then the solution to all this is simple, since there is no problem with her in PVE; just have the game make it so players can not join the queue in either PVP mode with tanks using Ophelia as the commander.

No need to buff, nerf, or change any commander. Just add in limits/limitations to playing them.

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And while we're at it also do the same for the cattb, make it only possible to play it in PvE... Surely the community would like that

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Doubtful, for tanks, I'd say the only limit for them should be numbers... say 2-3 per team... but not just the CATTB, the limit could be for all tanks; so there can be variety in PVP battles.

There shouldn't be a limit like this for PVE games thou. The limits in PVE should be tank class based, like since there can only be 1 arty, it should also be only be 1 AFV, 1 TD, and/or 1 LT as well. With no limits on the number of MBT's since the more the better (I love getting games where everyone's in a mbt).

Edited by TekNicTerror (see edit history)

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On 7/10/2020 at 7:23 PM, di_duncan said:

Considering PvE is against AI/bots while PvP is played against human opponents, I would argue that the disruption Ophelia causes in GlOps is a far more prominent/pressing matter than her performance in PvE.

  • The consequence of nerfing Ophelia in PvE is minimal (less damage or assisting perhaps)

I think you're ignoring the most important consequence, which is that PvE players get shat on all the time and for some - and in this case specifically some paying customers - this could be the last straw.

I think SilentStalker is headed in the correct direction, which is to find a way to mitigate Ophelia in PvP modes without harming her in PvE modes.  Unfortunately it sounds like the game engine isn't capable of distinguishing game mode during play, so the ideal solution of having different stats in different modes is apparently impossible.  (Note that this would also improve vehicle balancing if it were possible, but alas it seems it is not.)

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I feel like they don't have the dev team to be able to balance for 2 modes, so we will have to do with the same balancing for both modes. That said I indeed feel like they should make a way to make ophelia still good in PvE, without keeping her as broken as is for PvP based modes. If they actually manage to do this, I have no clue.  

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3 minutes ago, knutliott said:

which is that PvE players get shat on all the time

An interesting sentiment for sure. In my experience playing all gamemodes, PvE has been the least frustrating by far. 

So I'm genuinely curious, what are some of your grievances with/in PvE?

Personally, I can't really remember or think of any off the top of my head... Perhaps it's because I don't play enough PvE?

9 minutes ago, knutliott said:

I think SilentStalker is headed in the correct direction, which is to find a way to mitigate Ophelia in PvP modes without harming her in PvE modes.

While I certainly hope such a solution is feasible, I am seriously doubtful such a compromise can be realistic. Worst case scenario (which could very well be possible), may see the introduction of changes/additions which are ultimately unsatisfactory for everyone. 

In conclusion, considering Ophelia is an outlier (overperforming) among commanders, it would be much safer to lower her effectiveness (instead of buffing all other commanders). Done properly, this would transform her from being "P2W" to simply "unique" and would level the playing field amongst players in both PvP and PvE.

 

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52 minutes ago, di_duncan said:

So I'm genuinely curious, what are some of your grievances with/in PvE?

Could this be nerfing the cattb to really only have worse PvE performance instead of actually nerfing it for PvP?

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21 minutes ago, itzjustrick said:

Could this be nerfing the cattb to really only have worse PvE performance instead of actually nerfing it for PvP?

Possibly, I suppose? The nerf certainly made it far less protected in PvE, but I would consider that a side-effect of their attempt to artificially create a rock-paper-scissors dynamic in an effort to make ATGMs viable in PvP once again (Of course, in hindsight, it was a massive mistake).

However, I'd argue the CATTB is still a capable PvE vehicle in the right hands, especially with the recent AI ATGM nerf. 

IMO it's rather similar to the XM1A3, as both feature a glaring weakness against HEAT projectiles (ATGMs). But considering the CATTB's advantages (hydropneumatic suspension, 140mm fastdraw doubletap, better AP protection, etc.), it should at least be equally as effective (if not more effective) as the XM.

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20 hours ago, di_duncan said:

An interesting sentiment for sure. In my experience playing all gamemodes, PvE has been the least frustrating by far. 

So I'm genuinely curious, what are some of your grievances with/in PvE?

If you think balance is bad in PvP... then yeah, you don't play enough PvE. 

I.e. Arty was so poorly balanced that they removed it from PvP and GLOPS (also because cancer), but when they put it back in PvE they stripped out half the changes and didn't put back the stuff that made it useful in PvE.  Just neutered it completely.

It isn't as bad as it used to be, but it used to be that they'd try to force people to play PvP in order to obtain prizes/gifts.  You could pretty much always get them by playing purely PvP, but you could not get them by playing PvE.

Vehicle tuning is always attempted to be balanced for PvP no matter what it does in PvE.  T-15 is/was an OPAF god-tier vehicle in PvE... infantry is introduced, so ya know what let's give the T-15 some so that it's even more OP than before.  CATTB is wreaking havoc in PvP, so let's nuke the one thing that makes it great in PvE - its resistance to HEAT.  (Don't get me wrong, it's still a darn good vehicle in PvE, but the nerf was horribly disproportionate against PvE play.)

Bots aim at pixels still, though it's not as bad as it's been in the past.  If a bot decides that you need to die, you die.  Bot can be moving full speed while turning and twisting the turret while you're doing the same, but it's laser precision will nail your driver's port every single time.  Bots routinely cheat with ATGMs, firing them around corners and over hard cover.  They're tricks that in theory players can also do, but in practice no actual person can pull off.

Players have high win rates in PvE not because it's too easy, but because the bot AI is programmed to "cheat" and do things players cannot, not programmed to be smart.  Once you learn the bot cheats you can work around them, but it doesn't make it more difficult or more fun, just more frustrating.

I could go on and on...

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36 minutes ago, knutliott said:

T-15 is/was an OPAF god-tier vehicle in PvE...

And it's not in PvP?

A1arM and numerous other tryhard/stat-padding battalions/platoons would like to have a word with you regarding their lord and saviour...

36 minutes ago, knutliott said:

CATTB is wreaking havoc in PvP, so let's nuke the one thing that makes it great in PvE - its resistance to HEAT.

So it's less effective/more difficult to use in PvE, which I agree is disproportionate. However, simply its existence is far worse for PvP balance, as even in it's current state, the CATTB is disproportionately better than most (if not all) other MBTs.

Sure, many players (often tryharding) enjoy it since they are playing with it, but ask anyone how it feels to play against one (or many for that matter) and it's an entirely different story.

59 minutes ago, knutliott said:

Bots aim at pixels still, though it's not as bad as it's been in the past.  If a bot decides that you need to die, you die.  Bot can be moving full speed while turning and twisting the turret while you're doing the same, but it's laser precision will nail your driver's port every single time.  Bots routinely cheat with ATGMs, firing them around corners and over hard cover.  They're tricks that in theory players can also do, but in practice no actual person can pull off.

This has been a recurring complaint for PvE players for quite some time and I totally understand/sympathize. It's definitely frustrating, especially since a human opponent cannot expect to make similar shots. 

While there is no flip side of this in PvP (few bots after all), there are numerous other "difficulties" (to put it lightly) that do not involve cheating or superhuman accuracy.

  • MTLB and now Pindad spam/rushes
    • Often with Ophelia
  • Shitty team/teammates (that cannot be carried)
    • Teamkilling
      • Accidental kills = instant game forfeit
      • Intentional/planned kills = unpunished
  • Wilk PELE
  • Aforementioned hardcore platoons/battalions
  • Infantry proliferation
    • Mortars especially
  • Overperforming vehicles (which you play against)
  • Spotting and camo system and reciprocity (eg: MBTs having too much VR)
  • Network/connection issues (far less of a concern in PvE)
    • Ping
    • Hitreg
    • Desync
1 hour ago, knutliott said:

Players have high win rates in PvE not because it's too easy, but because the bot AI is programmed to "cheat" and do things players cannot, not programmed to be smart.  Once you learn the bot cheats you can work around them, but it doesn't make it more difficult or more fun, just more frustrating.

Again, I agree that bots can and should be smarter and/or more "organic". But I could also technically apply the same statement to PvP: 

Many players have/can achieve high win rates if they exploit many of the PvP-centric issues I've already discussed, and it is certainly not fun for their opponents. 

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2 hours ago, knutliott said:

CATTB is wreaking havoc in PvP, so let's nuke the one thing that makes it great in PvE - its resistance to HEAT.  (Don't get me wrong, it's still a darn good vehicle in PvE, but the nerf was horribly disproportionate against PvE play.)

Don't most people also find it to be nerfed in the wrong way for PvP play. Like it is still extremely strong and hard to fight against unless you have really high pen heat. Like it is still absolute crap to fight against frontally with another mbt, meanwhile the CATTB does 1.6+ k dmg in 1 second.  I don't believe anyone things the CATTB nerf is done right, for any of the gamemodes. But maybe there is someone here to proof me wrong...

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1 hour ago, itzjustrick said:

Don't most people also find it to be nerfed in the wrong way for PvP play.

1 hour ago, itzjustrick said:

meanwhile the CATTB does 1.6+ k dmg in 1 second

1 hour ago, itzjustrick said:

it is still absolute crap to fight against frontally with another mbt

Of course. I'm some of my discussions both on this forum and privately with friends, I've brainstormed some potential changes:

  • Reduce LFP effectiveness against AP or Nerf gun handling to 490 levels
  • Increase delay between shots to ~XM1A3 level (for consistency)
  • Model hull armor layout to be more similar to XM1A3 (also to be more consistent)
    • Especially against HEAT
      • Larger/more prominent UFP/turret ring weakness
    • Removing its hydropneumatic suspension may also be preferable
  • Decrease side armor effectiveness
    • Extremely trollish side armor atm

But...

  • Buff penetration to at least ~XM1A3 140mm levels (bigger gun should have some advantages)
1 hour ago, itzjustrick said:

Like it is still extremely strong and hard to fight against unless you have really high pen heat.

Definitely, but I believe the main issue with the CATTB's armor scheme is its layout/position.

I can pen the small sliver of weaker LFP even with a PL, but it's very inconsistent and often requires your vehicle to be at a lower elevation compared to the CATTB. This is mainly a consequence of the hydropneumatic suspension, which angles the already strong armor even further.

This is a fundamental factor as to why the CATTB is such a formidable brawler and face-hugger. When fighting in CQB, the CATTB is virtually immune to frontal fire. All the driver needs to do is face-hug an opponent (blocking other enemy vehicles from firing into his LFP) and wait for his reload. The facehugged opponent (even a 2AX) will also find it extremely difficult to penetrate the CATTB, since the UFP and turret ring is still quite strong. 

TBH, I think we all got a bit sidetracked here... This thread should be discussion about Ophelia, not comparing PvP vs PvE or complaining about CATTB ;)

Edited by di_duncan
Additional comments (see edit history)

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2 hours ago, di_duncan said:

And it's not in PvP?

I don't play PvP in Armored Warfare, so I can only go with what I've heard.  And what I've heard is that the T-15 is just good in PvP, and due to the ability to YOLOphelia rush, OPAF in GLOPS.

I have no idea who A1arM is, but something else to consider is that they might just be really good players who are using their abilities combined with teamwork to exploit what's otherwise a fairly small skill window.  In all honesty, that is what you're buying into when you play PvP so you really can't use it as a counter-example.

Regarding the "difficulties" that you list in PvP... most of those sound like mode problems, not vehicle problems.  Even the MTLB/Pindad spam issue is really a mode problem - at it's core it's a problem of bad players getting themselves isolated where the MTLB or Pindad can abuse them.  Those vehicles aren't good against bots in PvE because finding a lone, unsupported bot is rare.  If people stuck together and worked as a team in PvP then those vehicles wouldn't be all that great in PvP, either.

Also just FYI, I suspect that network issues are worse in PvE, because the bots don't have network issues.  The team you're fighting against has zero ping and zero lag... they just happen to be bots that are fairly predictable so not that hard to beat on an individual basis.  I realize that it feels worse in PvP because you're fighting another person and that other person just beat you because of lag or whatever, but the actual advantage/disadvantage encountered has to actually be worse in PvE.

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2 hours ago, knutliott said:

they might just be really good players who are using their abilities combined with teamwork to exploit what's otherwise a fairly small skill window.

Most platoons can be considered this, but only some platoons can consistently perform well and/or win games. The one consistency with tryhard platoons or battalions is their vehicle selection, so we can trace the cause to this common denominator.

As for the PvP "skill window", it varies between tiers, classes, vehicles, commanders, etc.; so you cannot use a blanket statement to presume it is consistently small.

The T-15 for example, is an easy vehicle to play, but one that is quite difficult to master. Most average or below average players in T-15s cannot perform nearly as well as their more skilled/experienced counterparts. This is due to a number of factors (tactics, damage efficiency, ATGM aim, etc.) but it is true nonetheless. 

2 hours ago, knutliott said:

Regarding the "difficulties" that you list in PvP... most of those sound like mode problems, not vehicle problems.

I thought we were comparing [overall] balance between modes in the first place? See your previous post:

6 hours ago, knutliott said:

If you think balance is bad in PvP... then yeah, you don't play enough PvE. 

 

2 hours ago, knutliott said:

In all honesty, that is what you're buying into when you play PvP so you really can't use it as a counter-example.

If we are only comparing vehicle effectiveness in respective modes, then your case here as well as your previous argument about AI cheating becomes invalid (since that too is a "mode problem"). In fact, I can use this same line of reasoning to dismiss the AI cheating, because 'that's what you're buying into when your play PvE'.

2 hours ago, knutliott said:

at it's core it's a problem of bad players getting themselves isolated where the MTLB or Pindad can abuse them.

2 hours ago, knutliott said:

If people stuck together and worked as a team in PvP then those vehicles wouldn't be all that great in PvP, either.

I'm curious if you've ever been on the receiving end of one of these HEAT-MP/HE barrages... Assuming you've only played PvE, then you are very lucky not to have.

To be honest, the MTLB and Pindad don't seem to be very popular in PvP mainly due to their inflexibility. As such, they are not objectively good per se (for PvP), but it's the principle behind these vehicles which is so frustrating. It's not at all dependent on player skill, whether that be the player(s) driving the MTLB/Pindad or the players matched against these vehicles, because the vehicles are designed to maximize damage with minimum effort/skill.

In most cases, it doesn't matter how many friendly vehicles can/will fire upon these vehicles, their [high explosive] burst damage and magazine size(s) ensure that they will take at least one friendly vehicle with them. If I just so happened to be one of the unlucky recipients of these rockets, I don't think I would blame my team, but I'd definitely curse the launch platform.

Of course, it's far worse in GlOps (where these vehicle are most common), since players can respawn and the objective(s) force MTLBs/Pindads to come to you or force you/your team to go to them.

2 hours ago, knutliott said:

I realize that it feels worse in PvP because you're fighting another person and that other person just beat you because of lag or whatever, but the actual advantage/disadvantage encountered has to actually be worse in PvE.

Agreed. But PvE's [relative] leniency (Against AI, FRK, respawn(s), etc.) is also worthy of note. 

The stakes are much higher when there is no amnesty for mistakes. 

Edited by di_duncan (see edit history)

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12 hours ago, knutliott said:

at it's core it's a problem of bad players getting themselves isolated where the MTLB or Pindad can abuse them.

If this was the case I'd be fine with the Strela and Pindad - But it isn't. If you're playing a Strela solo without OPhelia it's actually close to being balanced. Because in this case, as you described, you need to attack isolated targets and abuse all the mistakes the enemy team makes. Problem is that people soon found out about OPhelia. With her as a commander you can (in theory) increase your damage output up to around a whopping 2500dmg in the time span you should be long dead. Bad players are everywhere and hence why you don't balance vehicles for bad players in general. So no, not really a mode problem but a simple "bad balanced commander problem".
Additionally players soon found out that one Strela is nice, but a wolfpack of 3 coordinated Strelas is even better. Even if you happen to be a good player having 3 friendly MBTs as backup, if you get rushed head on by this wolfpack (ideally equipped with OPhelia) you're F u c k e d. You can't do shit about it. Trust me that's not really an exception in PVP if you happen to encounter an at least decent Strela platoon they're easily capable of weeping a whole flank within a minute. I can't really see how to change the PVP mode itsself to avoid such situations honestly.
The same can be applied to the Pindad, except that the Pindad is even more toxic because you can severely abuse the rocket trajectory to your advantage by staying particularly invincible while dumping your salvos. Additionally it fires HE which means that you deal a minimum of 1.5k dmg even to MBTs frontally.

12 hours ago, knutliott said:

If people stuck together and worked as a team in PvP then those vehicles wouldn't be all that great in PvP, either.

If you ever played a PVP game similar to AW you very well know that "teamplay" will never be a thing in such games. See the example above, If I was in a triple MBT platoon getting attacked by a triple Strela/OPhelia platoon we wouldn't stand a single chance even if we did focus-fire and stuff like that. If vehicles can be abused like that it's a quite obvious that something severely disturbs the balance. It's not a mode problem because you can't "fix" human players at all or adapt the mode rules in any way to level player skill. 

 

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On 7/13/2020 at 3:59 PM, di_duncan said:

I thought we were comparing [overall] balance between modes in the first place? See your previous post:

No, I was saying that vehicle balance in PvE is worse than in PvP because they literally don't balance vehicles for PvE.  PvE gets whatever happens to it when they balance for PvP.

 

12 hours ago, TeyKey1 said:

If you ever played a PVP game similar to AW you very well know that "teamplay" will never be a thing in such games.

The ad-hoc team play in MW4 and MWO were both light years better than AW.  Sure, there were bad players who were just going to be bad no matter what, but in general the teams worked together and helped each other to win the match.  It seems very strange to me that a fantasy future game about giant walking robot tanks would have better actual real-world tactics than a game about actual real-world tanks, but that has definitely been my experience.

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