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The beautiful list of very strong or OP tanks:

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10 minutes ago, knutliott said:

I don't even use the missiles on the AS21 because the AC/PELE is so good.  I understand that the Hunter has better missiles and I fully intend to use them, but my understanding is that the Hunter needs those missiles to keep up with the AS21's dpm.  In part because it only has half the ammo of the AS21 and so you can't just use its AC constantly for the entire match.

It kinda do but not really? Hunter have less ammo but does more damage with AP too. but otherwise yeah, you also kinda want to use the ATGM too on the hunter, where, indeed, on the AS21 you're not forced at all to do that (and it's kinda a waste to do that)

You can also take a look at the Enigma BP thread, the last message are about the Hunter and his ammunition plus stats

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Thanks for pointing me to that thread.

The thing is, I'm not sure that "more damage with the AP" is actually useful.  The PELE that both vehicles have normally does 38-40 damage for me when firing at something with soft armor, which is about what you'd expect from the Hunter's AP.  So except for those in-between cases where the AP's 192mm pen is enough to pen but the PELE's 120mm pen is not (and thus reduces the damage of the PELE), you're going to want to be firing PELE all the time.  Which makes the AP "upgrade" not that significant.

Your NERA thread is also useful to the debate, because that should mean that the Hunter is basically immune to autocannons until the NERA is destroyed by something bigger.  I had been worried that its armor was going to truly suck in PvE, but if it's at least temporarily immune to ACs then that's very useful.

In the end, I'm still looking forward to the Hunter because I prefer to play Premium vehicles for the credits boost.  As long as the Hunter's overall performance is reasonably close to the AS21's, I'll happily play it.  I used to play my old Terminator Reaper all the time instead of the Ramka-99 simply because it was close enough and I wanted the extra credits.  (Then I got the 2017 which is a Tier 9 masquerading at Tier 8.)  So I'll probably switch to the Hunter regardless as long as the armor doesn't truly suck.

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44 minutes ago, knutliott said:

The thing is, I'm not sure that "more damage with the AP" is actually useful.  The PELE that both vehicles have normally does 38-40 damage for me when firing at something with soft armor, which is about what you'd expect from the Hunter's AP.  So except for those in-between cases where the AP's 192mm pen is enough to pen but the PELE's 120mm pen is not (and thus reduces the damage of the PELE), you're going to want to be firing PELE all the time.  Which makes the AP "upgrade" not that significant.

Well, on the hunter, it feel more like you could just do a 50/50 with the ammunition, PELE just feel like a "change of weakspot" ammo on the hunter instead of a "it help me do more damage"

 

45 minutes ago, knutliott said:

Your NERA thread is also useful to the debate, because that should mean that the Hunter is basically immune to autocannons until the NERA is destroyed by something bigger.  I had been worried that its armor was going to truly suck in PvE, but if it's at least temporarily immune to ACs then that's very useful.

Happy to hear it help.

It almost like other AFV tho, you need to be a bit more careful, but overall Armor can tank if you stay in a good hull down position

47 minutes ago, knutliott said:

In the end, I'm still looking forward to the Hunter because I prefer to play Premium vehicles for the credits boost.  As long as the Hunter's overall performance is reasonably close to the AS21's, I'll happily play it.  I used to play my old Terminator Reaper all the time instead of the Ramka-99 simply because it was close enough and I wanted the extra credits.  (Then I got the 2017 which is a Tier 9 masquerading at Tier 8.)  So I'll probably switch to the Hunter regardless as long as the armor doesn't truly suck.

It is close to the AS21, maybe a bit inferior, but the AC / ATGM mix help going quickly into the higher outgoing damage numbers

and one of the reason i brought the Hunter to the discussion, because it perform closely to the AS21 with a more interesting armor (and "kinda" more resistant with the 1k mm NERA boost)

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When it comes to T-15, there is one thing that bothers me most - view range. Why on earth does that thing has better view range than same tier MBTs? So it will not only do absurd damage, you can't even spot for it because it, for some reason, outspots every single MBT when stationary, and almost every MBT on the move.

Also, it is really overrepresented in PvE, roughly 15% of all player vehicles are T-15s.

T-15 fix could be quite simple, reduce it view range significantly, add overheat mechanics to AC (that wouldn't be a bad idea to do to all ACs in unmanned turrets) and it would make T-15 a good support vehicle, able to melt softies with autocannon fire but not able to do it constantly. Good players would still be able to do well in it, and "rush forward, RMB on target, hold LMB, profit" players would get killed real fast.

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The solution to many, or most of the problems with OP tanks, is simply DELETE OPHELIA.
If a vehicle is OP, there is nothing that makes it OPer than pairing it with a commander, whose main skill is also grossly, ridiculously OP.

Actually I have an easy fix for this problem:
Every game you play with Ophelia... doesn't count.

That is to say: every win gets you Zero credits, and every game you win or lose using Ophelia does not count toward your "stats".
Because then, everyone who actually just liked playing with Ophelia could do so, and everyone who who plays with Ophelia because they are talentless, stat-exploit vermin, would get nothing out of it.
Obviously, if they had actual talent or skill, it wouldn't matter, and could could easily get the same effect from Sabrina, or Ioannis or whatever.

Edited by Lenticulas (see edit history)

"Yog-Sothoth knows the gate. Yog-Sothoth is the gate. Yog-Sothoth is the key and guardian of the gate. Past, present, future, all are one in Yog-Sothoth."

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10 hours ago, Lenticulas said:

Actually I have an easy fix for this problem:
Every game you play with Ophelia... doesn't count.

Just Imagine the riots on the streets, a commander which was sold for 70 euros (and of course in expensive bundles with t10 premiums) being practically useless.

The problem in my opinion with OPhelia is that you can't balance her. Yes, you could take away here way too OP core skill, or re-balance her skill in different ways. However if that happens some people who paid (lots of) money for here in a different way will obviously pissed of. This is the same as when the CATTB got nerfed, people got pissed off as well, although it's still OP (as hell in PvP). And even if you would take all other skills and just leaver her core second chance skill or however it's called it would still make her OP. The other skills are nice to haves, but are not why she is OP. She is OP because running her you are not death even though if you would run any other commander you would be death. 

So now I see the problem that they need to decide to make the people who paid for OPhelia knowing her OP state angry by nerfing her. The other option would be not nerfing her and in this way shitting on the non-paying community by keeping such an OP and arguably p2w commander into the game. But since my.games or whatever the publisher is right now is a business, I would guess they don't want to nerf her. 

I think the best we can hope for is to get a commander which has her core skill only then tuned down in a tech tree vehicle. If we would really want this is a second question...

But hey this is just my opinion... 

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On 6/27/2020 at 12:01 AM, Lenticulas said:

Actually I have an easy fix for this problem:
Every game you play with Ophelia... doesn't count.

This would be very funny. It would enrage all the statpadders and "elite" OPhelia PVP players  :kek: Altough it won't happen.

For me this is the most toxic element of the whole game, at least for the PVP side of things. Agreed, she really can make certain tanks extremely powerful by default. Usually tanks with high burst damage and little armor, where the 5s timespan of the shield can really make the difference between dumping out an additional 2k dmg or not.

Additionally in the lategame and in 1v1 situations OPhelia is ridiculously OP no matter the vehicle. Not only allows you to survive your death blow, but to stay practically immune to single shot cannons for 5s of time (unless the enemy wastes 1 shot into your shield then you can safely dump one shell into him while he reloads). 


Spoiler

fdassdaas.jpg.c709df3e98adc5265f232fe9458a3043.jpg

 

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Granted I only play PvE and I know that Ophelia is a much bigger problem in GLOPS and PvP, but I've actually started moving away from her except for specific kinds of vehicles.

I use Cortez, Douglas, or Vincent in my MBTs.  Mostly Douglas, but my Vincent build helps in the waddling boats so I use him in Challengers and Merkavas, etc.  Cortez gets the all-'rounders that are already pretty good at everything, such as the Object 640.

I use Erin or Juan Carlos in vehicles that make use of stealth and/or vision.  If a vehicle already has good camo I use Juan Carlos because he gives a much better VR bonus, but Erin is good for vehicles that have borderline camo but can be powerful if given significantly more.  This generally includes most AFVs and LTs.

I use Freja in SPGs.

I use Fyodor while grinding vehicles of just about any type, until the crew gets to level 4.  I play somewhat more conservatively while grinding because Fyodor isn't great at anything except that XP boost.

I really only use Ophelia in vehicles that are basically fragile and lack camo to the point that Erin can't help, or in brawlers like Terminators that can accidentally find themselves surrounded and overwhelmed.  Both sets tend to also be vehicles that do crap tons of damage, so the reason I use her is so that when I'm blasting away and suddenly get spotted and insta-erased by a massive volley of bot return fire, I at least have a chance to hit 'g' and '8' to smoke and repair.

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On 6/8/2020 at 11:57 AM, TeyKey1 said:

MT-LB S8 Strela

Tier: 6 Class: AFV Premium: Yes

"Noo you can't just delete an MBT within seconds... Haha rocket pods go brrrr"

strela.jpg.442ebbc24c818a3d84717cf438cc0b8e.jpg

Modes: PVP, GLOPS
OP-Level: Ridiculous
Player-Level: Low Skill

 

shall we add a little data to this ... OP-Level: Ridiculous?  HA - we'll see about that!
 

I went through my GLOPS screenshots folder, and noted down any time there was a Strela in the match, and what place they came in, on the final results screen.
Place 1-10 ie. first place (top scorer) to last place (bottom scorer), by XP earned. All matches were 10 vs. 10, and i made a chart of the results..... :

strela-places.png.97674987b92bbb11129adf2ea0460974.png

The observant among you, may think you can see some kind of tendency, or pattern hidden in the results.

NOTE:
1. The 2 that came in 10th place, had zero XP, meaning they disconnected or team-killed and got their XP removed, they didn't actually 'come last'
2. Some of those in 2nd place, were beaten into 2nd  ... by ANOTHER Strela coming first!
3. Yes, some good drivers were probably in some of those tanks, and I dare say some useless wallet monkeys as well  ... the Strela seems to work for them too.
4. Coming top does not neccesarily = winning, sometimes 1st place on both sides was a Strela

Conclusion:
OP-Level: Ridiculous  - OMFG P2W Confirmed!

 

Edited by Lenticulas (see edit history)

"Yog-Sothoth knows the gate. Yog-Sothoth is the gate. Yog-Sothoth is the key and guardian of the gate. Past, present, future, all are one in Yog-Sothoth."

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I think it's quite clear that the Strela is a game killer in GLOPS no matter how you put it, simply because it's the perfect GLOPS tank. You can rush and deal the highest burst in the game basically. I sometimes cleared entire GLOPS caps alone in my strela without any problems at all (even without OPhelia). With the ability to respawn after a short cooldown the "suicide rush" tactics rarely fail against an unorganized and unaware enemy. If people are too lazy or dumb to focus fire a rushing Strela this is what happens.

Combined with OPhelia and/or a three man troll platoon it gets even worse. It's one of the main reasons I don't play GLOPS at T5-T8. Simply too frustrating.

I'm quite sure however that if you did this in PVP your results would be quite different. If you take a solo Strela player (with or without OPhelia only matters if the player is good) I can almost gurantee you that they won't end up as often at the top placings. A solo Strela in PVP requires some braincells to deal a high amount of damage. You could just do a yolo rush and die fast but then you "only" dump around 2-3k damage while the strela has a way better potential. Doesn't mean the Strela is balanced given OPhelia and troll platoons are a thing and even with a yolo rush you can do significant damage without thinking much.

P2W? I'd say yes. But we could say the same for lots of the BP reward tanks or OPhelia (as you need to pay gold to access the BP).


Spoiler

fdassdaas.jpg.c709df3e98adc5265f232fe9458a3043.jpg

 

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50 minutes ago, TeyKey1 said:

if you did this in PVP...

I can't say, because I'd rather stab myself in the eye than play pvp ;->. So I don't have the stats,

But I can imagine that if you used the burst ability of it, to take out 2 tanks, in PVP, and then died, that might work. Due to the Lanchester's Laws snowball effect of tank number and therefore firepower advantage in PVP, if you traded yourself dead, for 2x enemy dead early in the game... You might win rather a lot

Bearing in mind that in PVP, if your side kills the first tank, your team wins close to 70% of the time... Frightening isn't it.

But you are dead right, they wouldn't end up top,... Win rate though... You might get that

EDIT: I forgot to say: what I fear is that the Pindad, which is essentially another Strela, is going to start appearing in enormous numbers, as the Battle Path continues, and (especially if anyone has OPhelia )  just ruin everything that hasn't already been ruined by Strelas, in T678 glops.

 

Edited by Lenticulas
My life is one big dark room (see edit history)

"Yog-Sothoth knows the gate. Yog-Sothoth is the gate. Yog-Sothoth is the key and guardian of the gate. Past, present, future, all are one in Yog-Sothoth."

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3 minutes ago, Lenticulas said:

Bearing in mind that in PVP, if your side kills the first tank, your team wins close to 70% of the time... Frightening isn't it.

No idea where you pulled this statistic from, but it certainly doesn't seem valid.

Regardless, Lanchester's law(s) cannot be applied to AW. Devised during a period of human wave attacks across no-mans-land, its formulae were applicable to medieval formations and linear (or line) infantry exchanges. It does not account for equipment, training, and/or tactics, nor does it consider asymmetric warfare. It's safe to say that it is not appropriate nor pertinent to Armored Warfare, an online game revolving around modern tank combat.

Random battles are far more dependent on individual skill and/or smarts. Because there are no respawns/repairs, there's a far greater chance for upsets and comebacks. To have a correlation between losing the first vehicle and losing the match is absurd.

Say I rush to my death in all of my random battles. Even so, I seriously doubt that I would have a 30% winrate in the end. Ultimately, it is far easier for skilled players to carry in PvP, since victory is primarily decided by eliminations (which can be controlled by a single/handful of players), whereas victory in GlOps is decided in tickets (requiring collective team effort).

3 minutes ago, Lenticulas said:

But you are dead right, they wouldn't end up top,... Win rate though... You might get that

If Ophelia + MTLB suicide rushes in PvP regularly result in victory, there would be far more MTLBs (in platoons as well) in PvP. Unfortunately, this isn't the case. 

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10 minutes ago, di_duncan said:

No idea where you pulled this statistic from, but it certainly doesn't seem valid

It was from when I was playing pvp, I was writing down what happened vs. who got the first kill, and I posted it on the original forum, anyway... maybe it's on the Way Back machine ? .. It was iirc. About 139 pvp games and it was 68.9% of games were won by the same side that got the first kill.

Please if you have any more up to date info, or can start noting it down we can get some decent recent stats. I'd love to see if it's still true

Edited by Lenticulas (see edit history)

"Yog-Sothoth knows the gate. Yog-Sothoth is the gate. Yog-Sothoth is the key and guardian of the gate. Past, present, future, all are one in Yog-Sothoth."

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5 minutes ago, Lenticulas said:

It was from when I was playing pvp, I was writing down what happened vs. who got the first kill, and I posted it on the original forum, anyway... maybe it's on the Way Back machine ? .. It was iirc. About 139 pvp games and it was 68.9% of games were won by the same side that got the first kill.

My bad, I probably haven't seen it then.

However, your test results (despite the relatively large sample size) are not equivalent to your previous generalization: 

52 minutes ago, Lenticulas said:

Bearing in mind that in PVP, if your side kills the first tank, your team wins close to 70% of the time... Frightening isn't it.

Which implies that everyone will have similar results, overlooking numerous variables (and therefore potential sources of predisposition) which may differ between each and every game.

To devise a quick scenario, let's change the only reliable constant in your test, which happens to be you (as a player). If someone else, let's say my battalion-mate Shrek (who is particularly good at PvP), were to record his results, it's quite possible he would arrive at a different percentage. 

But even then, his performance is a variable in and of itself, as no one can be perfectly consistent in their play. Ultimately, there are far too many variables (vehicles, platoons, map, etc.) to make a precise and/or specific generalization; so an [intentionally] vague or imprecise statement should be used instead.

  • Good: In PvP, the team which can eliminate a vehicle first will usually win.
  • Better: The side to destroy a vehicle first in PvP will often win.
  • Best: Based on my observations, a team that gets the first kill will most likely win.

Sorry if this sounded like a lecture, my philosophy course's exam prep kicked in :P  

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51 minutes ago, di_duncan said:

To devise a quick scenario, let's change the only reliable constant in your test, which happens to be you (as a player). If someone else, let's say my battalion-mate Shrek (who is particularly good at PvP), were to record his results, it's quite possible he would arrive at a different percentage. 

OK then, if you want to do it and ask him to, I will be interested to see the results, whatever they are. The truth is the truth. All data is good data.

If you want to have a go too, if you play pvp, go for it!

PS when I did it, I said to myself the first tank had to be meaningfully first, if there were 2 on opposite sides killed within milliseconds that was a draw and didn't count in the stats

 

Edited by Lenticulas (see edit history)

"Yog-Sothoth knows the gate. Yog-Sothoth is the gate. Yog-Sothoth is the key and guardian of the gate. Past, present, future, all are one in Yog-Sothoth."

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