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Austin5125

New BMPT (post-release)

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It honestly feels like a downgrade to my old one, at the moment.  Lot of that might be the poor noise performance of the missiles, but overall it just feels a lot weaker.  Much lower cannon DPM, and the new missiles really don't pen anything I couldn't pen with the old ones.  They've got higher pen, but almost any weakspot vulnerable to 1k pen was vulnerable to 800mm.  And the armor doesn't seem worth the trade to me, the speed was more useful.

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The missiles can get the occasional one-shot ammo rack if you have a commander with a bit of module damage bonuses (I was using Rashid when I played it).  However, with the currently bugged behavior of the missiles, it's not really possible to aim at these points right now.

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As I've mentioned on various Discord servers, the new Termi is clearly better than the old one.  It plays differently which was the intent, but overall it's just plain better than the old one.  Nearly 1k missile hits will do that for you.  I'm not having any missile performance issues with it, perhaps because I'm not trying to shoot them at T10 vehicles with advanced soft kill APS.  Do not shoot Armatas with this Termi's missiles... shoot AFVs, LTs, and non-AIDS TDs.

That said, there was still no need to remove the old Termi.  They should have simply left it there never to be sold again and created the new one alongside it.

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It's simply a different tank. For PVP/GLOPS I think it's a significant buff, PVE it relies on dpm which means it was definitely better before (However it was horribly broken in PVE before so maybe it blends in better now).

In my opinion more distinct and fun to play. Now you can at least easily distinguish it visually from the other Termis. The ATGM are top notch, high pen, nice handling, and high damage. (Yes there seems to be an ATGM issue in AW nowadays but if this is fixed I think those missiles will be among the best T8 has to offer). MK was nerfed in dpm definitely but it's still quite capable to finish off enemies. Again for PVP/GLOPS this is not a big deal. I personally like the change a lot. It gives me more reason to actually use it for PVP rather than only PVE. But I have to say, that I have just recently aquired a mod. 2017, which leaves me with both an alternative for PVP and PVE whereas I can fully understand if there are PVE people only having the mod. 2000 who are now unhappy.

Edited by TeyKey1 (see edit history)

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Just going to quote myself from the other thread.

On 5/27/2020 at 9:44 PM, Haswell said:

That's my thought as well. Since the Termi Proto is a highly recommended premium vehicle for basically everyone, it would likely attract new players and thus have its stats tanked due to the generally low level of player skill. Even so, in the hands of experienced players its performance would be on par with the Ramka and 2017.

That said, the 2000 is an overall nerf. Much of the Termi's effectiveness came from being able to mow things down with overwhelming autocannon DPM, and now it has considerably lower DPM than the Ramka before even considering the decreased mobility. I would say this actually makes the 2000 quite balanced as a tier 8, since it now lacks the extreme DPM that made it arguable OP. Do the same with the Ramka/2017/Termi 2/T-15 please.

One thing I overlooked is that the new Termi has 12 degrees of gun depression, compared to the 8 degrees on the old Termi/Ramka and 10 degrees on the Termi 2. This is actually a fairly large advantage for sloped hulldown tactics, although there aren't a lot of maps with positions that only work with 12 degrees of depression. Not to mention the fact that the Termis are most effective when you can keep moving forward and mowing things down as you go.

The new missiles... they hit hard, if they hit. It feels like they have very high base deviation or noise, the missiles jitter around a lot even without softkill in the general direction I'm aiming at. 

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I realize that on paper its DPM has been nerfed, but I'm not sure that's true in reality.  (By 33%, I think?  At last nominally?)  The guns switch so quickly that you can fire a missile, switch to cannons and fire a burst, switch back to missile and fire another, etc.  On the new Termi that's efficient due to the extra pen and damage from the missiles.  On the old Termi there wasn't any point - just left click the AC and hold until the target blew up.  The old Termi's missiles were basically irrelevant... on the new Termi they're integral.

It does take more skill to maintain similar DPM, but I see that as a good thing.

-----

Nerfing the entire line is a different discussion.  The line's 30mm ACs shouldn't be doing 40-45 damage... they should be doing 20-25 like every other comparable 30mm AC.  It makes no sense that the Terminator line's ACs do as much damage as they do, out-damaging 35mm and 40mm guns that coincidentally aren't Russian.

I do really well in my AS21, but there's simply no keeping up with a well-played Terminator series.  Even vehicles that should be similar - AGDS, T-40 - can't keep up because they've been deliberately designed to be inferior.  The Terminator line's armor, unmanned turret, and DPM are incomparable.

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I mean, it definitely *works* just fine.  The "improved" armor just doesn't feel like it's doing much of anything, and the loss of gun DPM is very noticeable when facing Bradleys and other thin-skins.  The missile wobble is apparently a bug, from what I'm hearing, so should be evened out and work properly at some point.  

Overall, it WORKS... but I think it's at best an even-up thing from the old one, and probably an overall downgrade in practical, usable firepower.

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On 5/28/2020 at 11:52 PM, knutliott said:

I'm not having any missile performance issues with it, perhaps because I'm not trying to shoot them at T10 vehicles with advanced soft kill APS.  Do not shoot Armatas with this Termi's missiles... shoot AFVs, LTs, and non-AIDS TDs.

One of the things I'm seeing with it is that even if you shoot at a T-14 or a T-15 from the rear  or side aspect the missile starts to go off course.  I thought that the soft kill system was only protection in the front aspect not 360 degrees on it.


 

"If you were not birthed with claws or fangs, store bought will do just fine."

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3 hours ago, Katsumoto said:

One of the things I'm seeing with it is that even if you shoot at a T-14 or a T-15 from the rear  or side aspect the missile starts to go off course.  I thought that the soft kill system was only protection in the front aspect not 360 degrees on it.

From what I've heard, the missiles are bugged right now.  That is not their intended performance.

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I'm mainly playing missile dumpsters in AW, and one thing that is for sure is that those missiles are bugged. This is definitely not normal behaviour, even when soft-kill comes into play.


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I yet to see when and how ATGM performance on bmpt-proto be fixed, but i am not a fan of vehicles with assymetric gun placement (like WoT Lee tank) and this is not going to change ever. This feature alone makes this tank to stay in reserve.

And bmpt-2017 is fine, though i miss that godly AC penetration on old bmpt-proto.

 

 

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Is not just the termi missiles that are bugged, i believe it's soft-kills in general that are "overperforming" like a patch ago or two until it was hotfixed.

Couple of glops games with the hellfire and it was a lottery hitting something with a softkill, even at very close range

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Yes since some patches there are numerous ATGM fucked up. I'm just thinking of the AGDS or the SPHINX their missiles are doing all kinds of crazy stuff. Soft-Kill seems to be broken aswell. I'm slowly starting to question if there even is something that currently works as intended. :skepiseal2k:

 


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June 3 hotfix seem to have reduced the jitter on the missiles, they now fly fairly straight in the absence of softkill APS. On the other hand they go wild whenever softkill is present, more so than other missiles from what I observed.

It's a bit more fun now that I can actually hit things somewhat reliably, but it still pales compared to the Ramka when it comes to straight up mowing through bots.


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4 hours ago, Haswell said:

On the other hand they go wild whenever softkill is present, more so than other missiles from what I observed.

 

I don't own the tank so I can not tell it trying myself, but this is true with the tank like it is or also with sting like a bee crew specialization, a commander like Rasheed optimized to reduce AGTM deviation and the retro that does the same?

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I did try the progression Ramka and in PvP the missiles, even with all I could do to make them precise, crew, commander and retro, had a terrible deviation vs anything that had APS, and vs T10 tanks like T15 or Merkava almost all my missiles was missing the target, while in PvE they are quite reliable and seem to don't suffer APS.

So it is possible that the missile bug is also present for the Ramka, not only for the new bmpt, and happens only when PvP is played.

I am only guessing it as don't owning the new tank I can not make a real comparison, but with the Ramka it is as, if not even worse, when the APS was buffed too much some time ago, at that time at least stacking all you can to counter APS some improvement was obtained, now I don't even know if those things work or the missile deviation is so high no matter if a commander or other means to improve it used. I did not try to unequip retro and change commander, it is enough masochistic to play with them in PvP.

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