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Opinion Wanted: Foliage Camo Changes

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Mirroring this from Discord, because it's a mess to ask for opinions in a chat room without filters or categorization.

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Personally I'm in support of this, but ONLY if there will be a limit or diminishing returns on the stacking effect. Otherwise the game will become bush kemp warfare and everything will revolve around superior vision control.

One of the reasons why I support this is due to the inherent difficulty in stacking camo without commander skills (I'm looking at you Erin). New and existing players who don't have access to such commanders already have a much harder time at vision control, as they are at a severe disadvantage in terms of their base camo rating. This can be attributed to poor map design not providing enough distance for high view ranges to be an effective alternative to high camo ratings, so allowing more opportunities for players to improve their camo with foliage and positioning will help somewhat in addressing the problem.

On the other hand, I was made aware that this change will potentially destroy the current PvP meta and vision control will reign supreme. I have no experience in PvP, so someone else should comment on it.

 

Supplementary info: https://armoredlabs.net/index.php?/topic/18-spotting-and-camouflage-officially/

 


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I'm a bit lost now:

According to this:

https://aw.my.games/en/about/game-guides/spotting-and-camouflage

Quote

Tree canopies work much like bushes but only the part with leaves is taken into account. When you stand under a tall tree with a large crown, it will not help your camouflage in the slightest. But if you stand on the same level as the tree canopy so that it is positioned between you and the enemy, it will work much like a bush. Fallen trees also work like improvised bushes.

It already works like that I suppose. And this is as well the case according to my knowledge.

In this case just leave it as it is. If it is not the case I think it's something that can get added. However, I think there should be a hard cap of only 1 tree counting as extra camo. Otherwise it gets out of hand. In a PVP point of view I don't see any problem with this as long as you can't stack it to exorbitant values.

Edited by TeyKey1 (see edit history)

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Just let me say that discussion about this anywhere outside pvp is pointless. 

I consider whole nerf to bushes/camouflage that happened already a mistake. So what if people cried about invisible tanks.. at least it required skill to use now we have almost nothing. 

But now we have another problem as time passed and after power-creep, some vehicles don't need another buff (as it will be buff to certain group of tanks). 

Anyway it wont be huge change compared to what was before whole mentioned nerf so they should add it. 

 

4 minutes ago, TeyKey1 said:

It already works like that I suppose. And this is as well the case according to my knowledge.

It's about stacking them together. 

Edited by kusy (see edit history)

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I think that it should be introduced but it should come with additional limitations and changes.

Nerf the camouflage factor foliage provides by something around 50% and limit the stacks of camouflage to a maximum of 2. This also applies to systems such as TACTICAM or ADAPTIV camouflage systems. This reduces the maximum camo factor from bushes on vehicles with these kinds of system (PL-01 and Griffin 50mm are examples) from 2 bushes worth to 1.5 bushes worth (in the current system). This would not buff the maximum foliage camo value on vehicles without this system. HOWEVER, it would nerf their camo value if there is only 1 bush/tree worth of camo. This forces your to "double bush" for the best camo value. This should make spotters such as the Shadow easier to spot.

Firing should only get rid of 1 bush worth of camo at a time. If you are double bushed, and fire, you lose 1 bush worth of camo if any bush is within 15m. The bush camo should recover after 3-5 seconds. Even if there is a third bush blocking LoS, it won't contribute any extra camouflage. This allows vehicles to preserve some camo after firing, which would both help in PvE and help defend PvP players from excessively strong spotters.

Better thermal vision retros/upgrades should also be implemented to serve as some sort of counter against foliage as well.

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Ok so I think I get it now:
 

Tree falls into Bush and overlaps with it. --> Bush provides double the bush-camo and then gets processed further for camo-calculation. Whereas nowadays a fallen tree just counts as another bush in the LOS.

Hard to tell what difference it makes actually without knowing the calculations. 

If it's not too much I guess it'll have little impact on gameplay. Experienced players should be able to profit from it without gaining a massive advantage.

So in my books this should be fine, only take into account that I have no clue how the calculations are done.


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I think this should be filed under "non-problems that don't need fixing". Has anyone ever complained that bushes and fallen trees don't stack?

I know that Dev. depts have to be kept occupied, but there's a point that's reached in lots of online games, where they are just fiddling with it for no actual reason. And it opens up the possibility that super ace pvpers will find a way of min-Maxing this to their advantage, and to the disadvantage of the rest of us. But my glass is half empty.

Edited by Lenticulas (see edit history)

"Yog-Sothoth knows the gate. Yog-Sothoth is the gate. Yog-Sothoth is the key and guardian of the gate. Past, present, future, all are one in Yog-Sothoth."

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On 5/16/2020 at 1:09 PM, Lenticulas said:

I think this should be filed under "non-problems that don't need fixing". Has anyone ever complained that bushes and fallen trees don't stack?

I know that Dev. depts have to be kept occupied, but there's a point that's reached in lots of online games, where they are just fiddling with it for no actual reason. And it opens up the possibility that super ace pvpers will find a way of min-Maxing this to their advantage, and to the disadvantage of the rest of us. But my glass is half empty.

Agreed, if it ain't broke don't fix it.

In my opinion, they should fix the ineffectiveness of the soft kill APS in PVE and the after death ATGM guidance for the bots instead of bush stacking.

Glass half empty is just being pragmatic. Better to miss an opportunity then invite disaster. Useful qualities in the desert.

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Even if I did not knew that bushes and fallen trees did not stack I don't think that it is not a relevant thing. Sure not all the players try to rely much on bush camo bonuses and even those that do it to complain have to know, if I never complained it does not mean that I had never tried to use a bush and a fallen on purpose tree to make my camo better, it mean only that I was not aware, but only that I was only loosing my and maybe exposing my tank to some risk to have the tree fall right ahead or behind the bush for a not existing camo bonus that I did not had a way to check, as there is not an in game tool to do it.

And the screenload tip that suggest you to create fallen trees nests was at least misleading, a wrong tip or maybe a tip valid in an even previous iteration of the bush camo mechanics. And If changes are made tips obsolete for that changes should be removed.

Also the new way of having the density of the bush affecting how much camo bonus is given, while before the main problem with small bushes was to have all your tank bihind it, is imho a very relevant change.

It is a matter of fact that if in some woodland maps there is plenty of trees to fell, even if in PvP an experienced player can notice them and blind shot, in some winter maps and desert ones at best you find some bushes that i suspect with the new mechanics will give less camo bonus even for the players careful enough to hide all the tank behind them, thing that sometimes needs some finesse as you should also be in a position that let you actually shot at your targets if you are not only spotting for your team snipers.

Until I have tested the new mechanics I can not tell anything for sure, but my first impression is that with the new mechanics it will be even easier to get good camo in some maps, that have plenty of bushes and huge trees near by, while in some other ones, that have almost no trees and only very small and not dense bushes the life will be harder for every tank that relies on camo to survive. And as it adds to other changes in the game, like the introduction of tanks like the AS21 and T40 that promote aggressive game playing and even more Ophelia, that at least in GLOPS gives some more survival when using such tactics, I am not completely found of it.

For the tanks that really rely on camo to survive, being them sniper oriented tanks like the T10 wilk or the Centauro, or little spotters like the Crap Jeep, to be effective in some maps will become harder, both in Glops when they are already easily revealed by suicide runs with T40 or Sphinx and in PvE  when before was possible to out spot even lieutenants using little bushes, while possibly the reduced camo from them will make it no more doable.

I am fine with changes, so i think that in this case " if it ain't broke don't fix it" does not apply, as even something that is not broke can be changed if it makes the game play better. But I suspect that the impact of this change will not be so positive, making the bush and fallen tree camo bonuses more map depending instead of more player skill depending, how well you will perform with a tank that relies on camo will depend even more on what GLOPS and Random Battle map you are in, thing on which the player has no control, or PvE map, thing that the player knows before starting the queue, but that anyway possibly reduces the missions that can be done with such tanks, even more if you go with randoms and you can find only MBT snipers so you have to risk and go to spot by yourself.

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