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Crossfader

Massive nerf to BMPT with twin guns

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So i read in the patch notes that they "fixed" an issue were the BMPT's guns were both firing at the same time (BMPT mod.2017, Ramka 99 and Terminator 2) but this has cut there DPM in half....

The BMPT mod.2000 isnt affected and retains its DPM of around 17k base.

I dont know if this was intended, but it makes little sense to me that to vehicule that has 2 guns is somehow firing twice as slow as the vehicle with one gun

Just to be sure i tested all 4 tanks in the training room with a timer to see if the ingame DPM on the stat card are ok, and i came with in +/-500 dpm, so its seems that they indeed lost half of there gun damage.

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Yes, good.

And yes, get the Mod. 2000 and T-15 which I can only assume were missed, because it doesn't makes sense for either of them to have 2x the ROF of the others.

And finally, I can't really believe I'm saying this, but if you're going to nerf all of the Terminators then you need to nerf the AGDS along with them.  But if you do nerf the AC firepower of the AGDS, you really need to rebalance its armor to M1A2 standards which is where it should have been all along.

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2 hours ago, Schlock said:

Good.

Now do the Mod. 2000 and T-15 next and make PvE fun again for all other vehicles.

A yes that good old mentality of nerf everything until they are all equally shit

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6 hours ago, knutliott said:

Yes, good.

And yes, get the Mod. 2000 and T-15 which I can only assume were missed, because it doesn't makes sense for either of them to have 2x the ROF of the others.

And finally, I can't really believe I'm saying this, but if you're going to nerf all of the Terminators then you need to nerf the AGDS along with them.  But if you do nerf the AC firepower of the AGDS, you really need to rebalance its armor to M1A2 standards which is where it should have been all along.

I mean, AGDS has some impressive firepower, but it pays for it - armour is non-existant, it has camouflage rating of a planetoid, is dead meat when someone comes near it.

5 hours ago, Crossfader said:

A yes that good old mentality of nerf everything until they are all equally shit

You aware how stupidly overperforming those vehicles in PvE are? I mean, what's the point of playing anything but Terminator-class tanks because they are better at tanking damage than MBTs, better damage dealers than AFVs and gun-based TDs, better scouts than AFVs?

There's a reason why T-15 is so overrepresented in PvE, 15% of all player vehicles are T-15s.

It's easier to nerf four overperforming vehicles (and it just needs a significant AC RoF nerf, nothing serious) than buff 100+ others to their level

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4 hours ago, Schlock said:

There's a reason why T-15 is so overrepresented in PvE, 15% of all player vehicles are T-15s.

I think people play T-15 not because it is fun or ones get great satisfaction of  farming bots in PvE but for few reasons

  • Contract missions asking for being on 3 top XP, and usually T-15 (or Hunter AFV, T-40) is easy way for archiving it
  • Many SO at tier 10 are really hard to complete with just MBT in randoms (considering how deeply brain-dead they are)
  • Frags with ATGM was one of last BP challenges, plus it combined with high caliber and HEAT challenges too, no surprise here
11 hours ago, knutliott said:

Yes, good.

And yes, get the Mod. 2000 and T-15 which I can only assume were missed, because it doesn't makes sense for either of them to have 2x the ROF of the others.

And finally, I can't really believe I'm saying this, but if you're going to nerf all of the Terminators then you need to nerf the AGDS along with them.  But if you do nerf the AC firepower of the AGDS, you really need to rebalance its armor to M1A2 standards which is where it should have been all along.

Devs added a some (in)consistency problems with new balance to this hybrid MBT/AFV/TD line 

Instead of just dropping DPM a bit to 10-12K/min on most of AFV and giving reliable pen, they added other factors which have to be countered with stupid high RoF

This AC RoF works on soft targets like Bradleys, but in order to compensate  the lack of penetration on most of MBT (and some LT) of fronts and sides - player has to resort to ATGM, which became unreliable. Instead of making ATGM dealing moderate and reliable damage, let say 8-9K/min we neither have high alpha damage , nor reliability.

Speaking of this Mod 2000. The whole story of what they did with original vehicle (tier change, model change) is kinda sick. I think Termi 2017 in 0.33 is just fine in PvE, i certainly saw unucum on Mod 2000 once which won damage race the whole team (including me on 2017) by doing several times more damage. On same time this vehicle has weaker armor. So i don't know what is good. I think these extremes which devs so much like are not healthy for game. 

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This whole thing is funny.

 

During PTS, one of the things I saw was that when the T-15 appeared and started to shoot with its gun instead of one stream of bullets there were 2.  That was the issue that needed addressing.  It looked more like a graphics glitch than anything.


 

"If you were not birthed with claws or fangs, store bought will do just fine."

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8 hours ago, dfnce said:

I think people play T-15 not because it is fun or ones get great satisfaction of  farming bots in PvE but for few reasons

  • Contract missions asking for being on 3 top XP, and usually T-15 (or Hunter AFV, T-40) is easy way for archiving it
  • Many SO at tier 10 are really hard to complete with just MBT in randoms (considering how deeply brain-dead they are)
  • Frags with ATGM was one of last BP challenges, plus it combined with high caliber and HEAT challenges too, no surprise here

Which are all just different ways of saying that the T-15 is OPAF and is the best vehicles for all of those situations.  Nerf the T-15 and maybe they can then make challenges and missions more achievable by other vehicles?

8 hours ago, dfnce said:

This AC RoF works on soft targets like Bradleys, but in order to compensate  the lack of penetration on most of MBT (and some LT) of fronts and sides - player has to resort to ATGM, which became unreliable. Instead of making ATGM dealing moderate and reliable damage, let say 8-9K/min we neither have high alpha damage , nor reliability.

Speaking of this Mod 2000. The whole story of what they did with original vehicle (tier change, model change) is kinda sick. I think Termi 2017 in 0.33 is just fine in PvE, i certainly saw unucum on Mod 2000 once which won damage race the whole team (including me on 2017) by doing several times more damage. On same time this vehicle has weaker armor. So i don't know what is good. I think these extremes which devs so much like are not healthy for game. 

It still works on MBTs, you just have to get close and brawl.  Which the Terminators are perfectly capable of doing, so you only have to resort to ATGMs if you're not willing to change your play style and adapt to the capabilities of the vehicle.  Terminators used to be the best at any range.  Now they have to get close to be the best, but they are still the best if they get in close.

I agree that the 2017 is just fine in PvE now that its AC DPM has been halved.  Same for the Ramka and Terminator 2.  The only ones out of whack now are the Mod. 2000 and the T-15.

And by the way, it doesn't take a Terminator to out-perform an entire platoon. Someone can pull up a screenshot of a crazy performance in just about anything.  It's just more common in Terminators.

 

AS21.jpg

13 hours ago, Schlock said:

I mean, AGDS has some impressive firepower, but it pays for it - armour is non-existant, it has camouflage rating of a planetoid, is dead meat when someone comes near it.

Yes, that's why I said that if they do choose to nerf the AGDS's firepower that they would then need to rebalance its armor to its correct Tier 8 M1A2 level, not the current Tier 6 M1 level.  The AGDS turret was designed to be mated to an M1A2 chassis... why AW chose to mate it to an M1 chassis instead I assume we'll never know.

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Well, about that idea that mycom is actually trying to make Terminators only stupidly OP instead of "why bother playing anything else" OP, from tomorrow's patch notes:

  • BMPT series vehicles with twin autocannons now fire their guns simultaneously (two rounds per cycle)

Yeah.

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So they mostly fix a major problem with a few vehicles that are OPAF, but missed a few instances (T-15, AGDS), so then decide that rather than fixing the rest of the instances they should just roll back the fix.

No vehicle should have 20k+ DPM.  In fact I think you could even lower than number and say that no vehicle should have 15k+ DPM.  Either sustained or burst.

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18 hours ago, knutliott said:

So they mostly fix a major problem with a few vehicles that are OPAF, but missed a few instances (T-15, AGDS), so then decide that rather than fixing the rest of the instances they should just roll back the fix.

No vehicle should have 20k+ DPM.  In fact I think you could even lower than number and say that no vehicle should have 15k+ DPM.  Either sustained or burst.

15k would be fine on vehicles that had other massive drawbacks. Okay, give 15k DPM to something, and in return make it blind as a bat, armoured with chewing gum and wet cardboard, make it slow and huge. But giving stupidly high DPM to tanks that are armoured like a MBT, and yet, faster, stealthier, with better view range than MBTs and even giving some of them infantry is massively stupid. But it's mycom, "massively stupid" is kinda their motto.

Still, AGDS is fine in that regard, it does have stupid DPM but if it gets spotted (and it will get spotted due to bad concealment) it gets nuked. And that's fine.

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4 hours ago, Schlock said:

Still, AGDS is fine in that regard, it does have stupid DPM but if it gets spotted (and it will get spotted due to bad concealment) it gets nuked. And that's fine.

I agree that it's fine from a gameplay point of view, but it badly misrepresents what the vehicle was supposed to be and - unlike the Altay - they can't really rationalize it in in-game terms.

The Altay should really be roughly Tier 6, but they've rationalized putting it at Tier 10 by saying that it's based on advanced prototypes and further includes theoretical upgrades that would have been added by this point in the future.  But it's a tough pill to swallow to argue that future combatants would have taken AGDS turrets off of the M1A2 hulls they were built for and put them on M1 hulls instead.  That... makes no sense.

Regardless... yes, 15k DPM would be fine and reasonable for balancing purposes.  That would make the range roughly 6k to 15k at Tier 10 IIRC.  That can be balanced with negatives like you've proposed.

But 29k DPM vs 6k DPM?  That's silly to try to balance, especially as you've said when the 29k DPM is mounted on a well-armored, maneuverable chassis and has an unmanned turret that takes reduced damage.  You could give Terminators zero view range it they'd still be OPAF.

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