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Haswell

Hyundai Altay K2 Minmaxing Thread

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I just can't see the K2 as anything other than a Hyundai Altay. I just can't.

Anyone ran the numbers to see which module config give the best DPM or burst yet? I'm leaning towards the single shot gun with both reload modules, but there are convincing arguments for the magazine gun with +1 capacity and +50% burst RoF as well.

JttAbYO.jpg

Disclaimer: the K2 popped into my garage all of a sudden, I clearly didn't research it through the Chonker or Meme Jeep.


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I made a spreadsheet 4 weeks ago based on the leaked K2 stats. iirc the guns' stats have not changed in those 4 weeks, so the spreadsheet should still be valid:

image.thumb.png.9898d6ce1986d2d40eae9c3ef051f716.png

To explain the spreadsheet:

  • Boxes with green text and green fill have the best time for a given number of shots, with yellow text and yellow fill showing the best time on the 2nd best gun and red text and red fill showing the best time on the worst gun. 
  • All of the boxes with green text but no fill have better times than the box with yellow text and yellow fill, but not as good as the green text and green fill.
  • All of the boxes with black text and no fill are have better times than the box with red text and red fill, but worse than the bow with yellow text and yellow fill.
  • All of the boxes with red text and no fill are worse than the option in the same column with red text and red fill.

Green text and green fill -green text but no fill -yellow text and yellow fill -> black text and no fill -> red text and red fill -> red text and no fill

 

Note that these values do not take any retrofits or commander/crew skills into account.

It seems like the magazine loader with a single capacity upgrade and a single clip RoF upgrade gives the best sustained DPM, with the single shot gun being ~80 DPM behind it and he magazine loader with 2 capacity upgrades another ~50 DPM behind that. Any of these options are pretty good, and the option a player chooses can likely be compensated by personal preferences and playstyles.

The onle thing I will say is that the ready rack is pretty trash. Even with upgrades, the ready rack's DPM is worse than the stock gun without any upgrades (yes, really). However, depending the ready rack does have a few potential use cases depending on how many shots are needed to kill specific targets (and how much DPM you are willing to sacrifice). If a target needs anywhere between 3-5 shots to kill, the ready rack with various upgrades has the best ttk of any of the gun options (note that the magazine + cyclic + capacity only takes an extra 1.8 seconds to fire its 3rd shot that  ready rack + 2x cyclic). Once you get to the 6th shot though, the magazine loader gets ahead of the ready rack and stays ahead, while the single-shot gun takes until the 8th shot to pass the ready rack.

 

TL;DR: Use one of the following setups:

  • (5793 DPM) Magazine with capacity + clip RoF
  • (5711 DPM) Single shot with 2x RoF
  • (5664 DPM) Magazine with 2x capacity

Do not use the ready rack unless you are willing to sacrifice >20% of your DPM to kill isolated targets with no more than 3k HP and can guarantee that every shot does full damage.

Edited by MK_Regular (see edit history)
  • Upvote 3

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Spreadsheets galore, I like me some hard numbers. :wubseal:

I guess the magazine w/ capacity + cyclic would be the general purpose setup for throwing damage downrange every 10s ish. I can definitely see the single shot gun being useful though in niche roles such as cap resets or other things requiring constant fire. The TTK gap between capacity + cyclic and 2x capacity also closes considerably starting from the 7th shot onwards , so it depends if I really need that 4th shell in my initial burst.

Now that I think about it, are there any situations where I absolutely need to chuck out 4 shots totalling 2k damage (ie. a superior Bradley) as fast as possible, without having another target to shoot at immediately afterwards? Most of the bot bumrushes I've seen so far usually consist of light tanks with 2.5k health, far above the 2k mark but not consequential enough to use the RR setup.

I think I'm definitely thinking too much into the game

 

Other K2 notes: I'm still stock, so it feels incredibly sluggish compared to everything else bar the ATDU. Lacking some sort of speed boost ability really hurts the K2 in terms of tactical mobility (ie. maneuvering and positioning), I hope the engine and acceleration upgrades will change my feeling on it.

The gun is also extremely derpy for a 120mm. 0.125 dispersion is absolutely horrid for a gun that only deals 600 damage per shot, it is in fact less accurate than most 120mm and 125mm HEAT shells. I realize the design intention of emphasizing its short range burst potential, but its mobility (so far for me) is far too mediocre for rushing into the short ranges where poor accuracy becomes a nonissue.

Protection-wise it's alright, it really reminds me of the 99A2 sitting in between being invulnerable against most squishies and being squish against missiles. Except the 99A2 has far better mobility and a hard hitting HEAT shell to boot. Yeah, I like the 99A2 better than the K2 so far.


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On 4/5/2020 at 12:11 AM, Haswell said:

a gun that deals 600 damage per shot

And just like that, all of my DPMs for different setups are wrong. I was under the impression the gun only did 590 damage per shot, so the listed DPMs are slightly (about 1.67%) lower than the actual in-game values.

 

Also, the probability of securing a kill with the shots you have in the clip is probably one of the biggest considerations if you are thinking about using a ready rack for the burst potential. Because of the ready rack's lackluster DPM, you're going to want to minimize the number of capacity upgrades in favour of upgrades that increase RoF. I don't actually know what the probability distribution is for determining the amount of damage dealt by a damaging hit (I know the range is +/- 10% if you don't have any bonuses or modifiers), but my best guess is that it is based on a either a uniform distribution (equal chance to get any given damage number inside the +/- 10% range) or a normal distribution (probability is weighted so that extremely high/low damage rolls are rarer. In the case of a normal distribution, my best guess would be that the range of probabilities is limited to 3 standard deviations, with anything outside of the 3 standard deviations being automatically assigned to the highest/lowest damage value as if it was only 3 standard deviations above/below the mean (this should not be too noticeable, since only 0.3% of shots fired would be at least 3 standard deviations away from the mean). 

 

In the event of a uniform distribution, the equation for the amount of health H that results in a kill with X shots and Y certainty is as follows:

H = X * average damage  * (0.2 * (1 - Y) + 0.9)

For example, in order to have 95% certainty of a kill with 5 shots doing 600 damage each, the maximum amount of health the enemy can have is:

H = 5 * 600 * (0.2 * (1 - 0.95) + 0.9) = 3000 * (0.2 * 0.05 + 0.9) = 3000 * (0.01 + 0.9) = 3000 * 0.91 = 2730 health

With this in mind, a few things to note:

  • Superior Bradley will take 4 shots with 95% certainty
  • Tbolt, PL-01, K21 will all take 5 shots with 95% certainty
  • All but the weakest MBTs (and T15s) will take at least 6 shots, probably 7 (or more)

The only times were the ready rack is better than the magazine loader is when you need to deal with isolated squishy vehicles quickly. Given that the magazine loader will be able to kill heavy vehicles faster than the ready rack, and that squishy vehicles very rarely (possibly never) spawn alone, the ready rack doesn't seem like a good fit for PvE where having mediocre  sustained DPM is more valuable that mediocre burst DPM. It might do well in PvP modes where there is a better chance of running into lone squishies, but not in PvE.

 

I don't have the math for the normal distribution, and it's far too late for me to go and work it all out, so I'm going to make a promise to come back to it tomorrow soon. That said, I don't expect that more consistent damage rolls will make that much of a difference in the number of shots needed to kill common enemies, but that remains to be seen.

Edited by MK_Regular (see edit history)

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11 minutes ago, MK_Regular said:

And just like that, all of my DPMs for different setups are wrong. I was under the impression the gun only did 590 damage per shot, so the listed DPMs are slightly (about 1.67%) lower than the actual in-game values.

It's 590, you're right. I was just lazy and rounded it up. PvE definitely favors sustained DPM over burst, but hopefully the RR being an underperformer will mean it might get buffed later down the road.

All the math is going to make my head explode. I didn't much like my stats course, and now it's coming back to bite me.


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i have still to unlock the tank and from Alabino or looking at its modifications i can not see a thing that is very important for me.

Is the autoloader of the "Draco type", allowing a faster partial reload, or "PL01 like", compelling you to wait the full reload time even if you have shot only a single shell?

I think that this can make a lot of difference as from the math above it seems that the tank is only able to kill few tanks with a single clip, but knowing that you need let's say 5 shots to kill a certain tank, by math or experience, it is very different to shot only one or few times, wait for a relatively fast reload, and then unleash the full autoloader salvo or to have to unleash it at the beginning and then have to wait many seconds without any possibility to shot and defend yourself. And this is important in PvE, but maybe even more in PvP, when a good enemy can actually count your shots and know when he can attack you without you able to react.

Autoloader + cyclic + capacity is the better choice for the higher long term sustained damage, but with partial reload allowed and a smart player it should allow a pretty decent burst rate, even if not good of the one allowed by the ammo rack, even when enemies that require somewhat between a single autoloader salvo and 2 of them are faced and mainly the 13 seconds long reload never happens during the engagement as long as the player reloads after every shot until he is sure that can kill with the loaded shots.

While with a PL01 type autoloader going for that route if allows to fire more shells in a long span of time can be sometimes pretty risky. And i think that it can make a big difference in having the tank as a sub par one compared to the competitors of the same tier, or a valid, but not OP alternative to them as it seems to me from the stats that it does not shine in any department, no big alpha (and a big alpha and some kind of ammo really help in ammo racking and disabling components, is way more then it can seem at first sight), no special protection, no super high sustained damage and mediocre accuracy and penetration. 

Edit: I calculated the 4  and 5  shot time with auto loader + cyclic + capacity guessing that partial reload is allowed so to reload each shell needs 4.3 sec (13/3) and reloading after each shell until the moment that all the loader can be used, and it should be 9.6 sec and 14 sec that are very good values.

 

Edited by BumbaX (see edit history)

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9 hours ago, BumbaX said:

Is the autoloader of the "Draco type", allowing a faster partial reload, or "PL01 like", compelling you to wait the full reload time even if you have shot only a single shell?

Good evening,

This autoloader is the progressive type where if you fire a round is loaded into the breach the autoloader reloads another round into the magazine unless you fire again much like the Altay.

On 4/4/2020 at 12:12 AM, Haswell said:

I just can't see the K2 as anything other than a Hyundai Altay. I just can't.

Anyone ran the numbers to see which module config give the best DPM or burst yet? I'm leaning towards the single shot gun with both reload modules, but there are convincing arguments for the magazine gun with +1 capacity and +50% burst RoF as well.

I've done some numbers as well.  I have to go back through and check them because there are things I saw when I did the calculations for a comparison for a clan mate when we were discussing what configuration works for a given situation. 

 

The K2 has been one of the tanks I have been waiting for for quite some time because it interests me.  There are differences that I'm starting to see.


 

"If you were not birthed with claws or fangs, store bought will do just fine."

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q1J2t2P.png

K2 might actually be somewhat good now. Assume 700+ damage for HEAT (probably HEAT-MP), a 3 round burst will handily remove superior Bradleys.

That is, assuming the accuracy isn't utter trash.


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On 4/6/2020 at 11:00 AM, Haswell said:

q1J2t2P.png

K2 might actually be somewhat good now. Assume 700+ damage for HEAT (probably HEAT-MP), a 3 round burst will handily remove superior Bradleys.

That is, assuming the accuracy isn't utter trash.

 

Given how it has followed in the footsteps of it's Turkish brother, it'll use the Altay HEAT-MP round.  Doesn't matter though, if you don't get all high rolls it'll take 4 rounds to finish it anyways.


 

"If you were not birthed with claws or fangs, store bought will do just fine."

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Don't forget that the K2 can designate, so it can get maxed damage, at least once every 70-80 sec and for 20 or 30 that with the Improved Target Tracker, that I have still to unlock, is more then 30% of the total time.

I did some experiments in Alabino right now, without the Improved tracker with the Magazine Loader and a Gun Breach upgrade and an Ammo Rack upgrade i get with Douglas 657 dmg/hit and i can fire the 3 shells of the first salvo with the tank designated, that is 657 x 5 =3285 dmg, while i have still a shell loaded, even if it would not hit with guaranteed maxed damage. With other commanders but Rachel that can have a big boost if enemy tanks are near by i can fire only the first shell of the second salvo before the designation expires, but with the improved tracker it should be possible to fire anyway all the 6 shells, and as this is also the configuration that gives the better sustained damage it is not bad at all.

Also the ammo rack option is interesting coupled with designation, you have a shell more ready, up to 5 in a certain configuration, that gives a burst damage of the same 3285 as before, then you have a certain number of other shells that hit with maxed damage depending on the duration of the designation. So you have burst to kill almost everything that is not an MBT without having to reload and to kill fast even the MBTs, assuming that you wait under cover to have all the rack loaded and the designation available.

With the HEAT, if it would not be completely shit, the burst damage is even more. Enough to erase a T15 or many MBTs if you can fire at places not immune to HEAT quite fast.

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7 hours ago, Katsumoto said:

 

Given how it has followed in the footsteps of it's Turkish brother, it'll use the Altay HEAT-MP round.  Doesn't matter though, if you don't get all high rolls it'll take 4 rounds to finish it anyways.

It might take 4 shots to kill a superior Bradley with 120mm HEAT-MP some of the time, but it will always take 4  shots with 120mm AP (not counting the challys) to do so.

Even if you still need 4 shots to kill the Bradleys half of the time, it's still better than needing always needing 4 shots (besides, it's HEAT, you can aim for weakspots or explody bits to improve your odds of getting a 3-shot kill with high damage rolls or fire).

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I don't have the K2 unlocked yet, so this is speculation.

I think there's more to the DPM consideration than just raw DPM and burst.  What makes burst damage good is that it allows you to hide while reloading.  For some vehicles that's not a big deal (read: Merkava 4M), but in others it is critical to survival.  Since the K2 is allegedly on the softer side for MBTs, I'll wager that the burst damage will be more useful in PVE than you think.

I find the burst damage of the Merkava 4M to be largely meaningless - it's useful at the start of each engagement, but then only ever reloads (for me) between waves or when moving on to the next capture point.  During combat I'm simply firing the gun as fast as it reloads each shot, and that's not good DPM on the Merkava.

But for something like the Stingray 2, burst DPM is invaluable.  I can pop off a few shots and then hide in safety while I reload.  Sure, that impacts my DPM, but DPM is zero when you're dead.  I'm not sure why but I attract the attention of bots at a ridiculous rate*, so being able to hide and break sighting while reloading gives me more opportunities to pump out that burst damage.

* like, I'm in my Redback following 2 teammates - a Termi 2 and a Hellfire - as we round a corner to ambush a bot PL-01.  Termi rounds the corner and launches a missile at the PL-01; PL-01 doesn't respond.  Hellfire rounds the corner and fires a missile; PL-01 doesn't respond.  Termi switches to guns and starts firing.  Still nothing.  I decide to peek around the corner; PL-01 immediately shoots between the Termi and Hellfire to hit me, and it wasn't a miss the damn thing was staring straight at me and tracking me even though I wasn't spotted until I rounded the corner.  This took 4-5 seconds in all, so if I was spotted I would have known before I rounded the corner.  The bot just chose to prioritize me, even while hidden, over 2 players who were actively engaging it.  And this isn't a one-off, it happens to me in some form in basically every game.  /shrug

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K2 now has mega HEAT.

ChAsPJP.png

This might actually change it from being a worse Altay to a far superior Altay, maybe even rivaling the Leclerc in terms of effective DPM. Will have to see whether the single shot gun is more competitive now, since the K2 now is practically a Leclerc uptiered.


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13 hours ago, knutliott said:

I don't have the K2 unlocked yet, so this is speculation.

I think there's more to the DPM consideration than just raw DPM and burst.  What makes burst damage good is that it allows you to hide while reloading.  For some vehicles that's not a big deal (read: Merkava 4M), but in others it is critical to survival.  Since the K2 is allegedly on the softer side for MBTs, I'll wager that the burst damage will be more useful in PVE than you think.

This argument is somewhat negated by the fact that the best DPM setup gives you a 3-shot burst (2.67 seconds between each shot) with a 13 second reload. This option gives you the most DPM you can get out of the K2 while still giving you the opportunity to hide between clips. You don't need to sacrifice burst damage for DPM when you can have both.

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@knutliott @MK_Regular i think that for PvE the truth sits in the middle of what you told. The reason is that a T15 or a couple of Bradley can easily pen you for massive damage if you are not very well hull down or very lucky at angling and moving your tank (that at least before the fix had an horrible accuracy when moving, i hope that now it is fixed, but i am still downloading the upgrade) in the time it took to fire your salvo. 

Both with the magazine loader and the rack (4 or 3 shells with the upgrades i have at now unlocked) it was not so safe to push against those tanks counting only at your burst potential as you had a big chance to see most of your health vanish in few seconds without even killing them straight, but the burst damage is still very useful if you wait that a T15 has fired his missiles and you attack it as he is reloading or to chip down a big chunk of health of a bot MBT.

I also find the designate target very useful combined with the burst and smoke, you can designate a dangerous enemy, let's say a lieutenant, pop smoke and unleash your salvo without him being able to react, in some situations is even possible to designate him in 3rd person view when he spot you but is unable to hit you then you can pop out the smoke and have some free shots doing maxed damage.

It is an interesting tank to play, you can not play it as an ADTU, but has its options to shine. The low dpm was its main problem, and with HEAT probably is now at least not under competitive compared to the same tier MBTs. 

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HEAT-MP with 189-891 damage is 540 average (730 with 35% bonus), yes?

That... doesn't sound that great.  Though I suppose 891 max does mean it could break 1k against soft targets.

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4 hours ago, knutliott said:

HEAT-MP with 189-891 damage is 540 average (730 with 35% bonus), yes?

That... doesn't sound that great.  Though I suppose 891 max does mean it could break 1k against soft targets.

No, it should be 600 listed average damage, with the maximum possible damage roll of 891 (600 * 1.10 * 1.35). It will never be able to break 1k damage per shot against anything, but it doesn't matter because it is the best 120mm HEAT-MP round in the game (it has the best penetration at 830mm and is tied for the most damage with the Leclerc's HEAT-MP at 600).

Edited by MK_Regular (see edit history)

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I gave it a try, it seems that now with a 3 shots salvo you can kill a bradley and designating it also something with more health.

If it does not deal a damage comparable to the one the Heath of the CATTB, Leo or Abrams do it is perfectly fine, about as good if not better then the T14s HEAT and surely better then the Chinese or Israeli ones.

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K2 with HEAT is now pretty good at both DPM and burst. Compared to AP, I am now guaranteed to 3 shot Bradleys at all times (without designate) and frequently hit for over 700 (up to nearly 900!), which is far better than AP while being significantly less reliant on the designate + RNGesus combo. Firepower wise it's actually pretty nasty now.

Mind you though, the hull armor is still garbage and unreliable, so I tend to play it like a somewhat better protected version of the PL-01. It's fairly nimble once I got all the mobility upgrades (except for the hybrid engine), though the 99A2 is still better in that regard.

K2 isn't too bad anymore. Still not great, but not bad. It's almost like a 99A2 that trades mobility and some armor for burst alpha. Having a 30s long designate and ridiculous view range is pretty useful for farming assist damage as well.


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On 4/5/2020 at 7:19 AM, Haswell said:

PvE definitely favors sustained DPM over burst,

When bots are coming in waves, they are fairly well "consumed" by real burst type of tanks provided that delay between waves (or spawns) is enough to full reload.  The reload management (or "bot spawn and accounting") then is key to get best performance. 

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I finally finished my AS21 grind and purchased the K2.  As I recall, there is one particular configuration of upgrades that clearly superior to all of the others.  Someone made a spreadsheet to figure it out, but I can't find it for some reason.  Anyone have it handy, or just remember the conclusion?

If it matters, I only play PvE so that's what I'm looking for.  A PvE config.

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Ah yes, the spread sheet. Good to know that my talents are appreciated :classic_biggrin:

TL;DR: the ready rack is pretty trash, and there are 3 good options if you're prioritizing DPM: 

  • (5793 DPM) Magazine with capacity + clip RoF
  • (5711 DPM) Single shot with 2x RoF
  • (5664 DPM) Magazine with 2x capacity

 

Edit: I thought this was a different thread, my bad. Removed the link to this thread.

Edited by MK_Regular (see edit history)

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Ah, thanks for merging.  I don't supposed we could get the title of this thread changed to something useful?  Makes it hard to find a thread about the K2 when the subject says nothing about the K2.

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On 4/5/2020 at 3:58 AM, MK_Regular said:

I made a spreadsheet 4 weeks ago based on the leaked K2 stats. iirc the guns' stats have not changed in those 4 weeks, so the spreadsheet should still be valid:

image.thumb.png.9898d6ce1986d2d40eae9c3ef051f716.png

To explain the spreadsheet:

  • Boxes with green text and green fill have the best time for a given number of shots, with yellow text and yellow fill showing the best time on the 2nd best gun and red text and red fill showing the best time on the worst gun. 
  • All of the boxes with green text but no fill have better times than the box with yellow text and yellow fill, but not as good as the green text and green fill.
  • All of the boxes with black text and no fill are have better times than the box with red text and red fill, but worse than the bow with yellow text and yellow fill.
  • All of the boxes with red text and no fill are worse than the option in the same column with red text and red fill.

Green text and green fill -green text but no fill -yellow text and yellow fill -> black text and no fill -> red text and red fill -> red text and no fill

 

Note that these values do not take any retrofits or commander/crew skills into account.

It seems like the magazine loader with a single capacity upgrade and a single clip RoF upgrade gives the best sustained DPM, with the single shot gun being ~80 DPM behind it and he magazine loader with 2 capacity upgrades another ~50 DPM behind that. Any of these options are pretty good, and the option a player chooses can likely be compensated by personal preferences and playstyles.

The onle thing I will say is that the ready rack is pretty trash. Even with upgrades, the ready rack's DPM is worse than the stock gun without any upgrades (yes, really). However, depending the ready rack does have a few potential use cases depending on how many shots are needed to kill specific targets (and how much DPM you are willing to sacrifice). If a target needs anywhere between 3-5 shots to kill, the ready rack with various upgrades has the best ttk of any of the gun options (note that the magazine + cyclic + capacity only takes an extra 1.8 seconds to fire its 3rd shot that  ready rack + 2x cyclic). Once you get to the 6th shot though, the magazine loader gets ahead of the ready rack and stays ahead, while the single-shot gun takes until the 8th shot to pass the ready rack.

 

TL;DR: Use one of the following setups:

  • (5793 DPM) Magazine with capacity + clip RoF
  • (5711 DPM) Single shot with 2x RoF
  • (5664 DPM) Magazine with 2x capacity

Do not use the ready rack unless you are willing to sacrifice >20% of your DPM to kill isolated targets with no more than 3k HP and can guarantee that every shot does full damage.

Please update the new stats from update 0.33.
Original magazine has one more ammo cap.

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